Whos Who Worldwide Registry trial transcript - Feb 26
Click for Sampling of Members - WoW!!     What a list!       Strictly Politics      Judge?      Incredible list of alleged victims

Tiny sampling of Managing Directors     ">Cross Benjamin    Cross Springer     Direct Quote         Con THESE People?!!

Million-dollar con man testifying to stay out of prison        America's Best & Brightest       Main Page       Dirty Jury?

                                                          Masters and Millionaires

5834
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
2 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, : CR 96 1016(S-1)
4 v. : U.S. Courthouse
5 Uniondale, New York BRUCE W. GORDON, WHO'S WHO
6 WORLD WIDE REGISTRY, INC., : STERLING WHO'S WHO, INC.,
7 TARA GARBOSKI, ORAL FRANK : OSMAN, LAURA WEITZ, ANNETTE
8 HALEY, SCOTT MICHAELSON, : STEVE RUBIN, and MARTIN
9 REFFSIN, :    TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL
10 Defendants. :February 26, 1998
11 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X 9:30 o'clock a.m.

12

13 BEFORE:

14 HONORABLE ARTHUR D. SPATT, U.S.D.J.

15

16 APPEARANCES:
17 For the Government: ZACHARY W. CARTER United States Attorney

18 One Pierrepont Plaza Brooklyn, New York 11201
19 By: RONALD G. WHITE
CECIL SCOTT
20 Assistant U.S. Attorneys

21 For the Defendants: NORMAN TRABULUS, ESQ.
22 For Bruce W. Gordon
170 Old Country Road, Suite 600
23 Mineola, New York 11501
24 EDWARD P. JENKS, ESQ.
For Who's Who, Sterling
25 332 Willis Avenue
Mineola, New York 11501


OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5835

1
GARY SCHOER, ESQ.
2 For Tara Garboski
6800 Jericho Turnpike
3 Syosset, New York 11791

4 ALAN M. NELSON, ESQ.
For Oral Frank Osman
5 3000 Marcus Avenue
Lake Success, New York 11042
6
WINSTON LEE, ESQ.
7 For Laura Weitz
319 Broadway
8 New York, New York 10007

9 MARTIN GEDULDIG, ESQ.
For Annette Haley
10 400 South Oyster Bay Road
Hicksville, New York 11801
11
JAMES C. NEVILLE, ESQ.
12 For Scott Michaelson
225 Broadway
13 New York, New York 10007

14 THOMAS F.X. DUNN,
For Steve Rubin
15 150 Nassau Street
New York, New York 10038
16
JOHN S. WALLENSTEIN, ESQ.
17 For M artin Reffsin 215 Hilton Avenue
18 Hempstead, New York 11551

19
Court Reporter: Owen M. Wicker, RPR
20 United States District Court
Two Uniondale Avenue
21 Uniondale, New York 11553
(516) 292-6963
22

23 Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript
produced by computer-assisted transcription.
24
25 (Case called.)

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5836

1 THE COURT: Good morning.

2 I want to go into our jurors. I didn't know we

3 had another matter on at 9:30 and I want to apologize for

4 keeping them waiting.

5 Any objection to me doing that?

6 MR. WHITE: No.

7 THE COURT: All right. I'm going to go into the

8 jury.

9 (The following occurred in the jury room.)

10 THE COURT: I hope you are all comfortable,

11 having coffee and all the other accoutrements.

12 I made a mistake. I have another matter on at

13 9:30. I didn't realize that otherwise I would have had

14 you come in later. I apologize for that. It was totally

15 my fault. I didn't check with my courtroom deputy who

16 tells me what to do every day. Without her I couldn't

17 function. Please excuse me for the delay.

18 (End of proceedings in jury room.)

19 (An unrelated matter was taken by the Court.)

20 (Jury enters.)

21 THE COURT: Again, I wish you good morning,

22 ladies and gentlemen.

23 Please be seated. Again, I'm sorry. I apologize
24 for keeping you. I didn't know I had this other matter at
25 9:30 which I knew I had to take care of. I apologize

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5837

1 again to you, the lawyers and the parties. I certainly do

2 not want to keep you waiting.

3 You may proceed.

4 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you , Your Honor.

5 I believe these transcripts are already in

6 evidence pursuant to the stipulation. Referring to BA

7 (13-90), BB-2 (13-94).

8 MR. SCHOER: Maybe we ought to explain how we

9 marked them, Judge. The way I marked them, I marked them

10 as a Defendant's Exhibit BA, but then I put in parenthesis

11 the tape number which is the government's tape number

12 which would be 13-90, so there is some reference to the

13 transcript and the government's tape which is already in

14 evidence, so that is how they are marked. If there is a

15 tape that the government hasn't put in evidence, then I

16 marked that as well as a B number for the defense.

17 THE COURT: Fine. When you say BA and 13-90, are

18 we talking about the 13-90 that the transcript is in?

19 MR. SCHOER: The same 13-90 a tape but a portion

20 of the transcript that the government hasn't played or

21 doesn't intend to play.

22 MR. TRABULUS: These are partial transcripts.

23 THE COURT: Is that satisfactory, Mr. White?
24 MR. WHITE: Yes, Your Honor.
25 MR. TRABULUS: With the Court's permission I

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5838

1 would like to read into the record what is being handed

2 out at this point.

3 THE COURT: As long as you do it slowly.

4 MR. TRABULUS: Okay. I skipped one.

5 BB-1 (13-94).

6 I was saying BB-2 and that is also (13-94).

7 BC-1 (13-95).

8 BC-2 (13-95).

9 BD-1 (13-98).

10 BD-2 (13-98).

11 BD-3 (13-98).

12 BE (13-80).

13 BF (13-81).

14 BG (13-82).

15 BI-1 (BH).

16 BI-2 (BH).

17 BK (BJ).

18 Now, Your Honor, the tape I will play.

19 THE COURT: Now, what are all of these numbers?

20 What do they represent? Transcripts ?

21 MR. TRABULUS: These represent transcripts which

22 under the stipulation are to be treated the same as the

23 other transcripts that have been introduced.
24 THE COURT: Transcripts that have not been
25 previously shown to the jury or played or anything else.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5839

1 MR. TRABULUS: That is correct, Your Honor.

2 THE COURT: Okay.

3 MR. TRABULUS: And they are transcripts of tapes

4 some of which may have previously been played for the jury

5 in other portions.

6 THE COURT: All right.

7 MR. TRABULUS: And if I may state what I propose

8 to do at this point also pursuant to the stipulation is to

9 mark in evidence, under the stipulation, Defendant's

10 Exhibit GC which is a tape known as EZ-42.

11 The transcripts that are being handed out now

12 BD-2 and BD-3, both of which have (13-98) in parentheses,

13 they are transcripts of a portion to be played but I

14 intend to play more than what is transcribed.

15 THE COURT: Have you followed this, Mr. White?

16 MR. WHITE: I was with Mr. Trabulus until the

17 end. Defendant's XG, GC, the tape is what he wants to put

18 in is the same as Government's 98.

19 MR. TRABULUS: That's correct.

20 THE COURT: Any objection?

21 MR. WHITE: No.

22 THE COURT: All of those transcripts, plus the

23 tape GC, George Charlie, in evidence.
24 MR. SCHOER: May I hand the transcripts out to
25 the jury, Judge?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5840
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 THE COURT: Yes.

2 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, what I'm about to

3 play, transcript BD-2, is a transcription of a very small

4 portion. BD-2 is what will appear on what will be played.

5 T HE COURT: This transcript is in alphabetical

6 order that I've just been handed?

7 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.

8 THE COURT: So when you say BD-2 (13-98) this is

9 a very short transcript.

10 MR. TRABULUS: That's correct.

11 THE COURT: I just want to make sure we are on

12 the same track.

13 MR. TRABULUS: Right. I'll be playing more than

14 that. And after that I'll be playing something which

15 again, which the following transcript transcribes, but

16 I'll be playing more than what is in the transcript.

17 MR. TRABULUS: May I proceed?

18 THE COURT: Yes.

19 CROSS-EXAMINATION

20 BY MR. TRABULUS:

21 A L A N S A F F E R , having been previously sworn by

22 the Clerk of the Court, was examined and testified as

23 follows:
24 MR. TRABULUS: After a few moments, Mr. Saffer,
25 I'll stop it and ask you if you recognize some of the

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5841
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 voices on there.

2 MR. TRABULUS: Do you have headphones there?

3 THE WITNESS: I believe I do.

4 MR. TRABULUS: Are they plugged in?

5 THE WITNESS: Yes, they are.

6 (Audiotape played.)

7 (Start and stop.)

8 BY MR. TRABULUS:

9 Q Do you recognize the voice of the person who says

10 cards of $30 a piece?

11 A JUROR: We didn't hear it.

12 MR. TRABULUS: It is very faint.

13 THE COURT: I cannot hear it.

14 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, do you hear

15 something?

16 THE COURT: I hear something but I can't make it

17 out too well.

18 MR. TRABULUS: Can we make it louder?

19 A JUROR: What exhibit is that?

20 THE COURT: BD-2.

21 MR. TRABULUS: The portion that is being played

22 is not BD-2.

23 THE COURT: This is not on the transcrip t?
24 MR. TRABULUS: That's correct.
25 THE COURT: You better let us know each time.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5842
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 This is not in the transcript and we can't hear it anyway.

2 MR. TRABULUS: Most of it is in the transcript

3 and I'll see if we can play it louder.

4 THE COURT: When it is in the transcript let us

5 know and when it is not let us know.

6 MR. TRABULUS: I will raise my hand.

7 THE COURT: When Mr. Trabulus raises his hand,

8 that's when it is in the transcript.

9 (Audiotape played.)

10 (Start and stop.)

11 BY MR. TRABULUS:

12 Q Can you hear it now, Mr. Saffer?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Do you recognize the voice who says $30 a piece, 20?

15 A Not totally.

16 MR. TRABULUS: We'll continue with it a little

17 further.

18 (Audiotape played.)

19 (Sta rt and stop.)

20 BY MR. TRABULUS:

21 Q Mr. Saffer, can you hear it adequately?

22 A Not adequately.

23 Q Do you recognize Mr. Gordon's voice?
24 A I'm not positive, but -- I'm not positive. Can you
25 play it again?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5843
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 MR. TRABULUS: Can it be made still louder?

2 MR. WHITE: It can be louder, yes. I think it is

3 the static, not the volume.

4 THE COURT: I'll tell you now that I cannot hear

5 much of this. I don't know about the jury. They probably

6 have better hearing than I do, but I cannot hear much of

7 it. It certainly is not enough to be intelligible to me.

8 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, co-counsel has a

9 suggestion for improvable audibility.

10 We think if it is made a little bit faster and a

11 little bit louder, it might be more intelligible. It does

12 seem to be played a little slower than normal.

13 Apparently there is no speed control on this

14 machine.

15 (Audiotape played.)

16 (Start and stop.)

17 THE WITNESS: That's Mr. Gordon's words.

18 BY MR. TRABULUS:

19 Q I just want to stop for a minute and ask you some

20 questions.

21 We'll continue.

22 Mr. Saffer, do you recall whether you yourself

23 were present when that happened?
24 A I probably was present.
25 Q Was that a sales training session conducted by

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5844
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 Mr. Gordon?

2 A Yes.

3 Q You heard in there at that point him tell the people

4 who were listening to him they had to be careful in asking

5 questions of prospective members so as to not giving him

6 misinformation regarding the Registry?

7 A Wit h respect to geographic location.

8 Q Is in a typical training session that Mr. Gordon

9 would do?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Now, earlier on there was a reference to regular

12 cards. I don't know if you heard that. People on regular

13 cards?

14 A Regular cards?

15 Q Let me ask you this. When salespeople were brand

16 new, were they given initially the NG cards, people whom

17 already had been called and declined?

18 A Yes, to practice on.

19 Q They would try to sell them, occasionally they may be

20 able to, but it was a way for them to practice?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And if they did well in terms of developing a

23 presentation they would be given regular cards?
24 A Regular lead cards, yes.
25 MR. TRABULUS: Okay. Let's continue.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5845
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 (Audiotape playe d.)

2 (Start and stop.)

3 MR. LEE: Your Honor, may I say something?

4 Mr. Trabulus raised his hand. I don't think everybody saw

5 that.

6 THE COURT: I didn't, but I think the jury as

7 they were reading the transcript saw that.

8 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you. I was trying to wave

9 it as much as I could.

10 Your Honor, at this point the tape simply ends.

11 This portion ends and we'll flip it over and

12 rewind it.

13 Your Honor, can you bear with me a moment as I

14 cue this forward. It will take a couple minutes.

15 THE COURT: Sure.

16 MR. TRABULUS: While this is going on I'll ask

17 Mr. Saffer some additional questions.

18 BY MR. TRABULUS:

19 Q Mr. Saffer, yesterday you were shown some pitch

20 sheets and -- do you have the exhibits with you?

21 A No.

22 Q Mr. Saffer, please take a look at Exhibit 374.

23 A Yes.

24 Q Now, that was a pitch sheet that Mr. White had you
25 read an excerpt from yesterday. Do you recall that?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5846
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 A That's correct.

2 Q And the excerpt was that numbered paragraph 3, which

3 I'll read. "As a member, you could also anonymously

4 nominate up to two qualified individuals annually just

5 like you've been nominated."

6 But before that it said the second full

7 paragraph, does it not say, "the Who's Who Registry is

8 limited to 60,000 business leaders who were nominated

9 usually by the established members and qualified for

10 inclusion in the Who's Who Registry."

11 A Above 3?

12 Q The second full paragraph on the sheet.

13 A The Who's Who Registry is limited to 60,000?

14 Q Yes.

15 A Repeat that?

16 Q It says "the Who's Who Registry i s limited to 60,000

17 business leaders who are nominated usually by the

18 established members." Correct?

19 A That's correct.

20 Q So it leaves open the possibility that a nomination

21 would not be by an established member, correct?

22 A That's correct.

23 Q Now, the language where it says that "you can
24 anonymously nominate up to two qualified individuals
25 annually just like you've been nominated" or something

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5847
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 like that, it appeared on several of the pitch sheets?

2 A Yes.

3 Q But on many of them does it not simply say "as a

4 member you can anonymously nominate up to two qualified

5 individuals annually" without saying anything just like

6 "you've been nominated"?

7 A Sorry. Please repeat the question.

8 Q Sorry, I'm doing two things at onc e here.

9 Why don't we, for example, take a look at 342.

10 I'm sorry, that's for Sterling.

11 Take a look at 368.

12 Do you have it, sir?

13 A I have 368.

14 Q Look at the numbered paragraph 2.

15 A Yes.

16 Q It says "you can also anonymously nominate up to two

17 qualified individuals annually."

18 A Yes.

19 Q It says nothing in there how the person, nothing

20 about the person himself who is receiving this being

21 nominated, correct?

22 A It says "you could also anonymously nominate up to

23 two individuals annually."
24 Q Nothing like "you've been nominated;" is that
25 correct?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5848
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 A That's correct.

2 Q Now, let's go back to the tape.

3 MR. TRABULUS: Now, we'll go back to the tape.

4 THE COURT: Is there a transc ript number for

5 this?

6 MR. TRABULUS: There is no transcript for what is

7 about to be played, Your Honor.

8 A portion of what will be played on the other

9 side of the tape appears as BD-3.

10 THE COURT: When I say number, I meant letter.

11 MR. TRABULUS: BD-3.

12 THE COURT: All right.

13 MR. TRABULUS: I'll try to raise my hand when

14 that part is reached.

15 THE COURT: We'll try to watch you.

16 MR. TRABULUS: We should note for the record the

17 date of this. January 27, 1995, Your Honor.

18 (Audiotape played.)

19 (Start and stop.)

20 BY MR. TRABULUS:

21 Q Do you recognize that as Frank Martin's voice?

22 A Yes, I do.

23 MR. TRABULUS: Continue.
24 (Audiotape played.)
25 (Start and stop.)

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5849
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 BY MR. TRABU LUS:

2 Q Now, you heard Mr. Martin telling whoever he's

3 speaking to, presumably salespeople, to avoid the one-year

4 sales, correct, the one-year memberships?

5 A I heard on the tapes.

6 Q And he indicated that one of those people frequently

7 cancel; is that correct?

8 A Kick out.

9 Q And I think he also said "cancel out."

10 A I seem to recall "kick out."

11 Q Now, the fact is that when somebody cancelled, Who's

12 Who would give them a refund as a matter of policy, would

13 they not?

14 A I can't be sure of that. That supposedly was the

15 company policy, to give a refund.

16 Q Well, do you know that with regard to a refund, the

17 policy, for example, would be to give a refund if somebody

18 sent a plaque back less a $20 or something charge for the

19 handling cost?

20 A Yes, sir. Yes.

21 Q And the reason that salespeople were told to avoid

22 this kind of sale, they wanted to avoid selling to a group

23 of people who had a history of tending to want refunds or
24 cancellations, that's correct?
25 A That's what you are saying.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5850
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 Q Was that your understanding at the time?

2 A Repeat that again, please?

3 Q When you were working there, did you understand that

4 you were to try to avoid sales that might result in

5 requests for refunds or cancellations?

6 A Not really, no.

7 Q Well, did you understand that a refund or

8 cancellation would be something that the company would

9 honor, a refund request or a cancellation request?

10 A I'm not certain they would honor it.

11 Q You were told they would honor it?

12 A Yes.

13 Q The reason you are not certain is that you yourself

14 did not work in the department?

15 A That's correct.

16 Q So you have no personal knowledge?

17 A That's correct.

18 Q But certainly there would be no reason if the company

19 was not planning to give refunds or honor cancellations

20 there would be no reason for them to discourage people

21 that might make sales for a refund or cancellation

22 request; is that correct?

23 A Could you repeat that again? I lost my train of
24 thought.
25 Q Let's say the company was not planning to honor

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5851
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 refund requests or cancellation requests. In that

2 instance, the company wouldn't care whether you sold to

3 somebody who would cancel or refund?

4 MR. WHITE: Objection?

5 A It's hypothetical.

6 Q Do you think if the company was just interested in

7 taking people's money -- withdrawn.

8 You heard Mr. Gordon say I don't want -- earlier

9 on in the tape telling the woman I don't want you to just

10 sound like a telemarketer who is just interested in

11 selling or taking money, that's not the Who's Who way.

12 You heard something like that?

13 A He was indicating that he wanted a lot of money to

14 come in, I heard.

15 Q Sure, but you were not supposed to sound like a

16 telemarketer who is only interested in sales?

17 A That's correct.

18 Q And if a company was just interested in making sales

19 and getting money in and not honoring refunds, they

20 wouldn't care whether or not they would sell to people who

21 would ask only for a refund because they would get the

22 money, right?

23 A How would you differentiate on the phone whether they
24 are the type of person who would cancel or not cancel.

25 Q Apparently Mr. Martin believed the people who would

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5852
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 only buy a one-year membership frequently would change

2 their mind. He was telling the salespeople to avoid those

3 people who would buy only one year?

4 A I'm not certain I was at that meeting.

5 MR. SCHOER: Objection. Unresponsive.

6 THE COURT: I'll deny the application because the

7 question has been asked three or four times with varying

8 results.

9 Let's continue with something else.

10 MR. TRABULUS: I'll continue with the tape, Your

11 Honor.

12 (Audiotape played.)

13 (Start and stop.)

14 MR. TRABULUS: Turn it over.

15 BY MR. TRABULUS:

16 Q While that is being turned over, again, is that a

17 fairly typical training sales program?

18 A May I just explain something?

19 Q Well, I asked you if that is typical?

20 A Typical. Yes or no, in other words?

21 Q Yes. Can you say?

22 A I find it hard to answer yes or no unless I explain

23 myself.
24 THE COURT: So just say I can't answer the
25 question yes or no.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5853
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 THE WITNESS: I can't answer the question yes or

2 no.

3 MR. TRABULUS: Okay. We'll continue.

4 There may be some duplication of what we just

5 heard and then it will continue.

6 You can fast forward it to avoid the duplication.

7 (Audiotape played.)

8 (Start and stop.)

9 MR. TRABULUS: Stop. This is where we have a bit

10 of the transcript BD-3 and then we'll stop it.

11 Continue.

12 (Audiotape played.)

13 (Start and stop.)

14 MR. TRABULUS: Stop the tape.

15 BY MR. TRABULUS:

16 Q Again, do you hear Bruce Gordon's voice now?

17 A Yes, I do.

18 Q Let me ask you, before we continue, is this a typical

19 presentation for newly hired salespeople?

20 A Yes.

21 Q That is fairly typical?

22 A Yes, that's why I hesitated.

23 Q I understand.
24 The people were told, the salespeople are told
25 about, as Mr. Martin says, people get what they pay for?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5854
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 A That's correct, as to what Mr. Martin said.

2 MR. TRABULUS: All right. Let's continue.

3 (Audiotape played.)

4 (Start and stop.)

5 MR. TRABULUS: Stop it.

6 Now, we're back on the transcript, Your Honor.

7 The transcript BD-3.

8 THE COURT: Very well.

9 MR. TRABULUS: Continue, please.

10 (Audiotape played.)

11 (Start and stop.)

12 BY MR. TRABUL US:

13 Q On that tape you heard Bruce Gordon tell the newly

14 trained salespeople they should give back the cards if the

15 people aren't appropriate for inclusion, right?

16 A Yes.

17 Q That's something he did on numerous occasions,

18 correct?

19 A For the new salespeople?

20 Q Yes.

21 A That was one sales meeting, I'm sure he did.

22 Q You are not aware if you were at that particular

23 sales meeting?
24 A I'm not sure.
25 Q He was doing that because there were certain people

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5855
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 for whom the directory was not designed, right?

2 A That's correct.

3 Q He was telling the salespeople to make their own

4 decision and be selective; is that correct?

5 A To make their own decision, yes.

6 Q Now, I would like to talk to you more about some of

7 the conversations that you had with customers who upgraded

8 or who you would contact for an upgrade.

9 A Yes.

10 Q Now, when you would contact them for an upgrade,

11 would you sometimes, in addition to the upgrade, try to

12 get them to buy the CD ROM?

13 A Yes, I would ask them.

14 Q In trying to get them to buy the CD ROM, would you

15 mention the number of members whose names were on the

16 CD ROM, 50,000, 60,000, whatever it was?

17 A Occasionally I must have.

18 Q Wasn't it part of the pitch for the CD ROM to mention

19 the number of members on it?

20 A I have to refer to some of the scripts.

21 Q Sure, take a look.

22 While you're looking, you just heard Mr. Martin

23 on the tape give a pitch where the CD ROM had 50,000?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q And he was telling the people to be scrupulously

OWEN M. WICKER , RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5856
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 accurate because that particular version of the CD ROM had

2 had 50,000 because it hadn't been updated yet, correct?

3 A That's correct.

4 Q So that was a pitch that had the number of people on

5 the CD ROM?

6 A Yes, also came across another one, yes.

7 Q So when you would talk to upgrade members you would

8 mention the number of people on the CD ROM, right?

9 A Not all the time because when I did the upgrading I

10 really didn't use this pitch because they were sold to

11 other members.

12 Q So you would mention them sometimes?

13 A Sometimes, not all the time.

14 Q Did any of them ever say to you, hey, wait a second,

15 you told me about a CD ROM with 50,000 people on this.

16 When I was sold this there were only 30,000 people

17 supposed to be in this. I'm very disappointed that there

18 are more members. Anybody say anything about that?

19 A No.

20 Q They didn't care if there were more than the total

21 amount that they were told that they were originally

22 limited to. They were happy.

23 A That I don't know.
24 Q Having more members on the CD ROM, more people to
25 network would increased the value of it, did it not?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5857
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 A Yes.

2 Q Let me ask you this, sir. Are you aware, sir, that

3 to the extent that mailing lists were used, the mailings

4 were made directly from an outside agency, an outside

5 mailing company?

6 A I have no idea.

7 Q Okay.

8 And the mailing lists were not culled to

9 eliminate existing members?

10 A I have no idea.

11 Q Now, if somebody was being solicited from a mailing

12 lis t and they were on more than one mailing list, it could

13 easily happen that they might receive solicitations at

14 different times, more than once, correct?

15 A I'm not an expert in mailing lists. I don't know.

16 MR. TRABULUS: May I have Exhibit 1601, 1602,

17 1603 and 1605 in evidence.

18 BY MR. TRABULUS:

19 Q Mr. Saffer, I'm showing you 1601, 1602, 1603 and 1605

20 which are all in evidence, and there are a couple of extra

21 ones here, but take a look at those, 1 through 3 and then

22 5, and tell me if they are all addressed to the same

23 individual, are they not? They are addressed to Steven
24 West or S. West?
25 A Yes, they are.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5858
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 Q The first one is S. West; is that correct?

2 A Yes.

3 Q And the next one is to Steven West?

4 A Steven West.

5 Q And Steven West?

6 A Steven West.

7 Q And the last one is?

8 A Well, 1604 is Steven West.

9 Q Mr. Steven West, right?

10 A Yes. And the last one is Steven West.

11 Q That one has a different title?

12 A Steven Johnson.

13 Q That's not the one. 1605 has a title president or

14 pres?

15 A President.

16 Q And 1603 doesn't have the title?

17 A No, it doesn't.

18 Q And 1602 does have the title?

19 A 1602 does have a title.

20 Q And 1601 has the title but it doesn't have the first

21 name Steven, it has S, S. West; is that correct?

22 A That's correct.

23 Q These are all solicitation letters from Who's Who
24 Worldwide, right?
25 A It's on their stationery, yes.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5859
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 Q Assuming these are genuine, would that sugg est to you

2 -- they all have different dates, right?

3 A December 28, 1992. March 31, 1994. August 8, 1994.

4 November 2, 1994. Different dates.

5 Q Assuming these are genuine and assuming the source

6 was mailing lists, would the differences in whether

7 there's a title or not, whether there's an initial or not,

8 a different date, suggest to you these must have come from

9 different mailing lists. The same individual must have

10 been on different mailing lists?

11 A I'm not an expert in the mailing list area. I can't

12 answer the question.

13 Q Fair enough.

14 Let me ask you this: During the course of your

15 conversations with people who upgraded, did you ever have

16 a situation like this?

17 You spoke to the person who you were trying to

18 get to upgrade and they said to you "wait a second, since

19 I bought this membership, I got another so licitation

20 letter. And since there is no reason why you would

21 solicit somebody who is a member, I figure out that I'm on

22 a mailing list. I'm dissatisfied."

23 Did that ever happen?
24 A I don't recall that ever happened.
25 Q Now, Mr. Saffer, you yourself, have you ever seen an

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5860
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 advertisement for something to buy that would say "limited

2 supplies" or like "while quantities last"?

3 A Yes, I have.

4 Q Or "sale ends July 3rd," something like that?

5 A Yes, I have.

6 Q Did you ever have a situation it turns out the item

7 is still sold after July 3rd for the same price, maybe

8 even a lower price?

9 A Yes, I have.

10 Q You had a situation, even though it said quantities

11 limited, a year later they are still selling the same

12 thing s?

13 A Yes, I have.

14 Q In those cases you didn't feel you were the victim of

15 any crime, did you, if you bought the item?

16 A Well --

17 Q Yes or no, sir?

18 A Yes.

19 Q You thought you were a victim of a crime?

20 A No, I misunderstood that.

21 Q You didn't think you were a victim of a crime?

22 A No.

23 Q If the item was supposed to be what it was supposed
24 to be, you were satisfied?
25 A Yes.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5861
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 Q It didn't really matter if the quantities were

2 limited or when the sale ended?

3 A No.

4 Q You might have been a little irritated that you could

5 have gotten a better price later, but you had no real

6 cause for concern, right?

7 A That's correct.

8 Q Now, Mr. Saffer, you were hired by responding to an

9 advertisement in Newsday; is that right? That's how

10 Mr. Gordon hired you?

11 A I saw a -- yes.

12 Q And there was an ad in the newspaper and you

13 responded to it; is that correct?

14 A Yes.

15 Q And before that, is it correct, sir, that you had

16 worked for Steve West?

17 A Yes, that is correct.

18 Q And you had worked in his company which published or

19 at least claimed to have published some directories,

20 right?

21 A Who's Who directories, yes.

22 Q You worked there for only about five months, correct?

23 A Yes.
24 Q And then a search warrant was executed there, right?
25 A Yes.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5862
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 Q And they still continued in operation after that,

2 right?

3 A Yes.

4 Q But you left at that point, right?

5 A Yes, with in a few days.

6 Q And you spoke to an Inspector Biegelman at that

7 point, Postal Inspector?

8 A I believe Inspector Biegelman was the leading

9 inspector who came in and announced himself as a

10 government inspector and said the company was under

11 investigation.

12 Q Did somebody from the postal inspector's office

13 actually advise you to leave?

14 A They suggested I do not return to the company.

15 Q You yourself were not arrested or charged at that

16 point; is that correct?

17 A That's correct.

18 Q But there were certainly some things that were wrong

19 with the way that company operated; is that correct?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And you didn't want to continue there at that point;

22 is that correct?

23 A That's correct.
24 Q You didn't want to be associated with a business of
25 the sort that Mr. West was operating, correct?



OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5863
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 A That's correct.

2 Q And that business would fail to deliver to people?

3 A I heard -- I didn't know that for a fact but I did

4 hear.

5 Q And that business would take money from people to put

6 them into registries and their names wouldn't appear in

7 the registries?

8 A That I'm not certain of.

9 Q And that business would double-bill people and run

10 their names through the credit cards, run their credit

11 cards through multiple times?

12 A I heard that, yes.

13 Q And you didn't want to have any part of that; is that

14 correct?

15 A That's correct.

16 Q And then you responded to an ad in the newspaper and

17 you were hired by Mr. Gordon, correct?

18 A That's correct.

19 Q And you stayed there for about five years; is that

20 correct?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Nearly five years?

23 A Yes.
24 Q It was an entirely different type of operation in
25 your perception, right, sir?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5864
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 Yes or no?

2 A Yes.

3 Q And while you were there, in Mr. Gordon's operation

4 or his business, shouldn't say his operation, business,

5 it's fair to say you believed you weren't committing any

6 type of crime at that point, did you?

7 A At the early part of my employment, I didn't believe

8 I was.

9 Q You stayed there, did you not?

10 A Yes, I did.

11 Q Is it not true that as time went on, Mr. Gordon's

12 business, the Who's Who Worldwide, offered more and more

13 benefits to members; is that correct?

14 A That's correct.

15 Q And it became more and more of not just a plaque, not

16 just a book but really offering services to members,

17 correct?

18 A Yes, correct.

19 Q And it started publishing the Tribute magazine?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Is it fair to say that the company became better and

22 better as time went on?

23 A Uhm --
24 Q Yes or no?
25 A Larger and larger, yes.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5865
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 Q Better and before in terms of what it provided to its

2 members?

3 Yes or no, sir?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Were you at Mr. West's business long enough to tell

6 whether or not it was getting worse and worse?

7 A Not really.

8 Q You were only there for five months?

9 A Five months.

10 Q Now, there came a point in time when you were

11 arrested, were you not?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And at that point in time -- soon after that you

14 decided to cooperate; is that correct?

15 A That's correct.

16 Q A couple weeks later?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And you had been familiar, were you not --

19 A May I correct that?

20 Q Yes, if it was mistaken, certainly.

21 A I didn't decide to cooperate a couple weeks later. I

22 was asked by Mr. Ron White's office, my attorney had said

23 that he wanted to speak to me in that case.
24 Q That was an interview?
25 A Yes.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5866
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 Q To see whether or not you wanted to cooperate with

2 them and whether or not they wanted to have you cooperate

3 with them, correct?

4 A Uhm, they asked me a few questions which I did

5 answer.

6 Q Did you understand that that interview was with a

7 view to seeing whether or not you might cooperate with the

8 government?

9 A Yes, I did.

10 Q And get a deal?

11 A Yes.

12 Q At that point in time you knew, did you not, that the

13 people who had cooperated in the West situation had done

14 pretty well, right?

15 A I didn't know -- explain "done pretty well."

16 Q Did you know that none of them went to jail?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And at that time you were about 56 years old, is that

19 correct, 55 or 56?

20 A Yes, approximately.

21 Q And you had just gotten married recently before that,

22 right?

23 A I got married in '95. May 21, 1995.
24 Q And your life had just taken a turn for the better,
25 sir?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5867
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 A Yes, I would say that.

2 Q And you wanted to cut your risks, is that fair to

3 say?

4 A Yes, it is.

5 MR. TRABULUS: Judg e, can we possibly take a

6 break at this point.

7 MR. JENKS: Judge, can we possibly take a break

8 at this time?

9 THE COURT: Yes.

10 Members of the jury, we'll take a recess at this

11 point. Do not discuss the case at this point.

12 (Jury exits.)

13 MR. DUNN: Your Honor, if you recall when

14 Mr. Trabulus asked for a one month extension back in

15 December, I opposed it because I had a trial schedule with

16 Judge Scheindlin for March 16th. I initially asked Judge

17 Scheindlin to try to put it for the 23rd because as it was

18 March 9th would be a nine week window and I thought we

19 might need nine weeks. It looks like there will be a

20 little bit of a dovetailing on those cases.

21 I made arrangements for another attorney to

22 select the case before Judge Scheindlin but I'm a little

23 concerned. My first request, I know the other attorneys

24 asked not to work Fridays, I wonder if it is not possible,
25 next Friday, if it is all right with the Court and jury

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5868
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 that we work that Friday afternoon if possible just

2 because of the time-frame.

3 THE COURT: Well, I have to check with my

4 courtroom deputy.

5 MR. DUNN: If it's okay, Your Honor. Also I'm

6 hoping since it is an anonymous jury with Judge Scheindlin

7 that it will take two or three days, might take up to a

8 week. But as far as summations and charge I will not have

9 a problem, but it is quite possible with deliberations and

10 when the evidence starts in that other case.

11 I've spoken with Mr. Rubin and he has no

12 objection, if it is okay with the Court, if that happens

13 he would agree that another attorney could stand in for me

14 for deliberations. Of course if that is okay with the

15 Court.

16 THE COURT: If Mr. Rubin is given a very careful

17 allocution as to his rights and the advantages and

18 disadvantages, it will be all right with me.

19 MR. DUNN: I'll address that with him and then

20 come back to you.

21 THE COURT: All right. But you say you want to

22 work a week from tomorrow.

23 MR. DUNN: Right, I would be happy to work. And
24 I've spoken to a number of the attorneys and they
25 understand the situation I'm in.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5869
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 THE COURT: They are the ones that asked not to

2 work on Friday.

3 MR. DUNN: I understand.

4 THE COURT: That's why I did it in the first

5 place.

6 MR. DUNN: There's a little supplement in that I

7 asked them and of course with the jury, if that would be

8 okay and even work longer days than now.

9 MR. LEE: I have to say I'm not in that group.

10 MR. TRABULUS: As well as I.

11 THE COURT: Is there anyone who objects to

12 working a week from next Friday?

13 MR. TRABULUS: I don't.

14 MR. LEE: I actually have a matter before Judge

15 Glasser at 10 a.m. on the 6th. It has just happened it

16 has always been on the Friday that Your Honor works. This

17 is the second time. It's at 10 a.m. in the morning. If

18 it is in the afternoon session, I'll try to rush.

19 THE COURT: It will only be an afternoon

20 session. No one objects to that.

21 MR. WALLENSTEIN: I would object to that. I have

22 a thousand things to do.

23 THE COURT: Mr. Dunn, I'm not an arbitrator or
24 conciliator or a mediator in the criminal case. Work it
25 out with your colleagues. I'll see about it. But if they



OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5870
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 don't agree I will not.

2 MR. DUNN: I understand, Your Honor.

3 (Recess taken.)

4 (Jury enters.)

5 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the

6 jury.

7 You may proceed, Mr. Trabulus.

8 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you, Your Honor.

9 CROSS-EXAMINATION

10 BY MR. TRABULUS: (Continued.)

11 Q Now, Mr. Saffer, yesterday I played a tape for you in

12 which you were seeking to make a purchase to this fellow,

13 Steve West, who posed as Andy Cappo. Do you remember

14 that?

15 A I was seeking to make a purchase?

16 Q In other words, you were speaking to him as a

17 salesperson. Do you remember that tape?

18 A Yes.

19 Q He posed as somebody who was high up within a

20 regional postal area; is that correct?

21 A That's correct.

22 Q And you were aware at the time that you had done that

23 that Mr. West's business had been the subject of an
24 investigation by the postal inspectors, correct?
25 A That's correct.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5871
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 Q And you had been spoken to yourself following the

2 search warrant at Mr. West's business by postal

3 inspectors; is that correct?

4 A That's correct.

5 Q And you were aware that postal inspectors were the

6 people who would investigate fraud of the sort that

7 Mr. West was engaged in; is that correct?

8 A That's correct.

9 Q And you had no hesitation, did you, in selling to

10 somebody who was -- claimed to be I guess a regional

11 manager of bulk mail in the postal service, correct?

12 A That's correct.

13 Q Now, you were aware, were you not, during the time

14 that you work ed at Who's Who Worldwide that there was a

15 lawsuit brought by Reed Elsevier, Marquis Who's Who,

16 against Who's Who Worldwide?

17 A Yes, I was.

18 Q And did Mr. Gordon express a view to you that Reed

19 was trying to put him out of business because he was a

20 competitor?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And did he express to you that Reed also used mailing

23 lists but basically didn't provide services to people they
24 sold to -- withdrawn.
25 Did he tell you that Reed also used mailing

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5872
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 lists?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Did he tell you that they were just basically a book

4 publisher? Yes?

5 A He did mention that to me, Mr. Gordon.

6 Q And his company was really doing something for the

7 people listed in it, did he tell you that?

8 A He would tell me that, yes.

9 Q Now, did there come a point in time where the covers

10 on the books had to be changed? Are you familiar with

11 that?

12 A No, I'm not.

13 Q Okay.

14 Did there come a point in time there seemed to be

15 some kind of problem with the mailings? You heard talk

16 about that?

17 A Yes, I remember that.

18 Q And that was around the very late 1994, beginning of

19 1994 time period?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Leading up to eventually the day there was a search

22 warrant executed; is that correct?

23 A That's correct.
24 Q And the problem with the mails there seemed to be a
25 great reduction in the volume of deliveries, right?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5873
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 A That I really don't know.

2 Q Fewer cards were coming in?

3 A Mr. Gordon mentioned that the mails were being held

4 up at the post office, delayed, he mentioned something

5 along those lines.

6 Q Fewer cards were being received in comparison to what

7 would have been expected from past experience?

8 A Yes, that's correct.

9 Q Did he explain to you that he had tried to contact

10 the post office about that?

11 A Yes, he did.

12 Q And were you aware that Debra Benjamin also contacted

13 the post office about that with him?

14 A No, Mr. Gordon mentioned.

15 Q He believed that the postal service was holding up

16 his mail? Did he tell you that?

17 A Just that it was being held up, that it might have

18 gone -- I don't remember exactly how he worded it.

19 MR. TRABULUS: Bear with me a moment, Your Honor.

20 THE COURT: Yes.

21 BY MR. TRABULUS:

22 Q Were upgrades and renewals given out to salespeople

23 kind of as a reward just like nominat ion ballots?
24 A They were given out. As a reword --
25 Q Is it fair to say that the better salespeople were

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5874
Saffer-cross/Trabulus


1 given more upgrades to call or renewals to call?

2 A Yes, that's fair to say that.

3 Q And how many upgrades would you be given on a weekly

4 basis, if you know?

5 A They were on sheets. Exactly how many were given, I

6 don't really remember, but I was given them.

7 Q Is it fair to say quite a few of the people you

8 contacted did in fact upgrade?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And renewed in the case of a renewal?

11 A Yes.

12 Q And you mentioned yesterday there were other

13 salespeople who made more money than you did?

14 A That's correct.

15 Q And presumably they would be given even more upgrades

16 than you would be given; is that correct?

17 A That I don't know.

18 MR. TRABULUS: No further questions.

19 (Continued.)

20

21

22

23
24
25

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5875
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 CROSS-EXAMINATION

2 BY MR. NELSON:

3 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Saffer.

4 Rather good morning, Mr. Saffer. My name is Alan

5 Nelson and I represent Frank Martin.

6 A Yes.

7 Q You know Mr. Martin; is that correct?

8 A Yes, I do.

9 Q Now, Mr. Saffer, am I correct, you were arrested on

10 March 30, 1995 while you were working at the Who's Who

11 Worldwide offices at 1983 Marcus Avenue in Lake Success?

12 A Yes.

13 Q That's when the search warrant was executed by the

14 postal inspectors effectively shutting down the operation?

15 A That's correct.

16 Q And you've been working there since 1990?

17 A July 1990, that's correct.

18 Q And as was brought out by Mr. Trabulus, this wasn't

19 the first time that you had been working at a location

20 where the postal authorities had come in and executed a

21 search warrant at a place where you were working; is that

22 right?

23 A That's correct.
24 Q It happened in 1990 when you were working for Steven
25 West; is that correct?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5876
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 A That's correct.

2 Q And shortly after that you applied for a position

3 with Who's Who Worldwide premised upon an ad in the

4 newspaper; is that correct?

5 A That's correct.

6 Q Now, one of the differences, however, when you were

7 working for Steven West you were not arrested in 1990; is

8 that right?

9 A I was not arrested.

10 Q But on March 30, 1995, you we re arrested; is that

11 right?

12 A That's correct.

13 Q Now, on March 30, 1995, you were, I believe, 56 years

14 old; is that correct?

15 A March what?

16 Q March 30, 1995.

17 A That's correct.

18 Q And you had recently been married?

19 A Yes.

20 Q You had been working at this job at Who's Who

21 Worldwide which was a good paying --

22 A May I make a correction?

23 Q Sure.
24 A Now, I was arrested on March 30th. I wasn't married
25 at that time. I got married May 21, 1995 after the

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5877
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 arrest.

2 Q So you were engaged at that point, I assume?

3 A Yes.

4 Q You were anticipating that you were about to become

5 married?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And you were working for some lengthy period of time,

8 five years now at Who's Who Worldwide in what was a

9 relatively good paying job; is that correct?

10 A That's correct.

11 Q In essence, your life had been going on reasonably

12 well. You were now getting married, you were in a good

13 job. Things were going well in your life; is that

14 correct?

15 A That's correct.

16 Q And on March 30, 1995, when the postal authorities

17 came into Who's Who Worldwide and executed that search

18 warrant arresting you, would it be fair to say that in one

19 fell swoop your life shattered right in front of you?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Now, when you were arrested back then that day, were

22 you taken outside of Who's Who Worldwide in handcuffs?

23 A Yes.
24 Q And while you were there during the course of the
25 search that was taking place when they were escorting

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5878
Saff er-cross/Nelson


1 people away, did you have the occasion to meet Inspector

2 Biegelman?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And he was the same guy who you had met five years

5 earlier at West; is that right?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q Now, am I correct that later that same day you were

8 taken to court; is that right?

9 A That's correct.

10 Q And you met with a criminal defense attorney?

11 A Yes.

12 Q And up to that point in your life you had never

13 needed a criminal defense attorney; is that right?

14 A That's correct.

15 Q You had never been arrested before, right?

16 A That's correct.

17 Q And you never had any reason for somebody like me or

18 the other nine criminal defense attorneys who are here

19 representing your former co-workers here on trial; is that

20 correct?

21 A That's correct.

22 Q And in your own wildest dreams y ou never expected to

23 need a criminal defense attorney representing you for your
24 own protection; is that correct?
25 A Yes.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5879
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 Q And you met an attorney that day by the name of Dan

2 Myers; is that right?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And when you met with Mr. Myers, am I correct that he

5 told you a little bit about what the charges against you

6 were; is that correct?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And he showed you basically a book which I'll show

9 you right now which is the criminal complaint, the

10 complaint and affidavit in support of the arrest and

11 search warrants; is that right (handing)?

12 A I don't remember.

13 Q Well, would I be correct --

14 A I saw this before, but I don't remember.

15 Q Well, Mr. Myers went over with you before you

16 appeared be fore the Judge that there were criminal charges

17 against you?

18 A Yes.

19 Q And he in essence told you there is a complaint and

20 showed you there was a book and reviewed basically what

21 the charges were as they related to you; is that right?

22 A That's correct.

23 Q And am I correct that before you even met with
24 Mr. Myers, you met with Marty Biegelman; is that right?
25 A Can you repeat that?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5880
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 Q Sure.

2 Between the time that you were escorted out of

3 Who's Who Worldwide at 1983 Marcus Avenue and Dan Myers,

4 the person who was going to be your criminal defense

5 attorney, the person who would protect your rights and

6 interests, you spent time with Inspector Biegelman; is

7 that right?

8 A Yes, that's correct.

9 Q Inspector Biegelm an took you to an office, didn't he?

10 A Yes, he did.

11 Q And he took you to an office, I think it was in

12 Hicksville; is that right?

13 A No.

14 Q Where was that office?

15 A In Brooklyn.

16 Q Okay.

17 And you sat down with Inspector Biegelman at that

18 time and he went through with you paperwork, sort of

19 pedigree information, your background, where you live,

20 things along that line?

21 A I'm not sure if it was Inspector Biegelman at that

22 point who went through everything with me. I'm not

23 certain. It was an inspector. I don't know if it was
24 Mr. Biegelman.
25 Q Maybe it was an Inspector Leonard possibly?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5881
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 A I don't remember.

2 Q But it was one of the postal inspectors?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Did that postal inspector tell you during the period

5 of time, between being taken out of the 1983 Marcus Avenue

6 office and your arrival in court where you met with an

7 attorney, that the government was looking for your

8 cooperation and that would be a means by which you would

9 be able to help yourself?

10 A I don't recall that. I don't remember that.

11 Q Do you recall whether or not either Inspector

12 Biegelman or any other inspector told you that day before

13 you even went to court since you were only a salesperson

14 and they really wanted to get the owner of the company,

15 the quicker you decided to help them in their

16 investigation the better chance you would have of helping

17 yourself?

18 A I don't recall that.

19 Q Were you told that there were other salespeople who

20 were already doing this, cooperating with the government

21 so that you should act quickly so th at you don't lose that

22 opportunity?

23 A I don't remember that.
24 Q Now, would I be correct in stating that between the
25 period of time literally when the postal inspectors

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5882
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 arrived until the time that you got to court, you were

2 rather scared?

3 A Yes.

4 Q You had never gone through anything like this

5 before. It was a terrifying experience; is that right?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q And then when you got to court you met with Mr. Myers

8 and he told you something about what the charges are,

9 correct?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And do you recall that Mr. Myers told you that if you

12 were convicted of the charges, you could possibly go to

13 jail?

14 A That's correct.

15 Q And am I correct that Mr. Myers also explained to you

16 th at there is something called the federal sentencing

17 guidelines which mandates certain sentences that a judge

18 has to impose based upon the nature of the penalty?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And he explained to you based upon what the nature of

21 the charges against you were that you felt within a range

22 based upon his predictions anyway, that you would have to

23 go to jail and that it would be mandatory if you were
24 convicted, did he tell you that?
25 A Yes.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5883
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 Q Would it be fair to say once your own lawyer told you

2 that's what you were facing and that's what might happen,

3 it made you a lot, lot, lot more scared than when you were

4 first taken out of there in handcuffs?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Now, am I correct that two weeks after your arrest on

7 April 18, 1995 you and your attorney Dan Myers met with

8 the government?

9 A That's correct.

10 Q That would be with Inspector Biegelman, right?

11 A That's correct.

12 Q And with Ron White; is that right?

13 A That's correct.

14 Q And you, Mr. Myers, Ron White and Inspector Biegelman

15 all sat down in an office together; is that right?

16 A That's correct.

17 Q And am I correct that at that time Inspector

18 Biegelman and Mr. White went over what the charges were

19 against you and told you in an outline form sort of what

20 they thought the evidence would be against you?

21 A Yes, that would be correct.

22 Q And they told you during the course of going through

23 that that they had some telephone recordings of you with a
24 confidential informant; is that right?
25 A That's correct.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5884
Saf fer-cross/Nelson


1 Q One of those recordings is a recording of a tape that

2 Mr. Trabulus played for you yesterday where you indicate

3 during the course of the recording that the seminar was

4 conducted at Hilton Head when in fact it hadn't; is that

5 correct?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q In fact, in the complaint, and I direct your

8 attention to page 68, paragraph 3.

9 A I see it.

10 Q The complaint actually specifies that particular

11 telephone conversation where you told the confidential

12 informant that Hilton Head was conducted when in fact it

13 had been cancelled; is that correct?

14 A That's correct.

15 Q Now, am I correct, and I believe you testified

16 yesterday, that Bruce Gordon had advised you and other

17 sales staff members that in fact Hilton Head had been

18 cancelled before you made the statement that was contained

19 i n that report; is that correct?

20 A (Perusing.) I just want to look at this for a second.

21 Q Okay.

22 It doesn't say that in there.

23 A That's correct.
24 Q Am I correct that before you had the telephone
25 conversation which you recorded with Steven West when he

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5885
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 was acting as a confidential informant, you had attended a

2 sales meeting where Bruce Gordon told you and other

3 salespeople Hilton Head was cancelled, correct?

4 A That's correct.

5 Q And he told you this to make sure that you didn't

6 tell anybody on the telephone that Hilton Head took place

7 when in fact it was cancelled and cannot make a

8 misrepresentation like that; is that right?

9 That's the purpose why he told you this, right?

10 A That's correct.

11 Q But nonetheless, you lie d about this on the telephone

12 in this December 2, 1994 recording despite the fact that

13 Bruce Gordon had instructed you and other salespeople not

14 to say that; is that correct?

15 A That's correct, I did say that.

16 Q And when you looked at that complaint and when you

17 spoke to Mr. White and Inspector Biegelman at the United

18 States Attorney's Office during your meeting in April of

19 1995, you knew you had lied about Hilton Head despite the

20 fact that you had been instructed by the company not to

21 tell anybody -- withdrawn. Despite the fact you had been

22 instructed to not tell customers that it took place

23 because in fact it was cancelled. Is that right?
24 A Can I offer an explanation on that?
25 Q I'll withdraw the question because it was such a

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5886
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 long-winded question it probably doesn't allow you to give

2 a yes or no answer.

3 When you were in the meeting at the U.S.

4 Attorney's Office you knew you had in fact lied about

5 Hilton Head in that tape; is that right?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q Now, during that meeting Inspector Biegelman and Ron

8 White confronted you with that, amongst other things; is

9 that right?

10 A That's right.

11 Q And they stressed the evidence that they told you

12 that they felt they had against you; is that right?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And they told you about this tape, amongst other

15 recordings; is that right?

16 A Told me that, yes.

17 Q Am I correct that the government also told you that

18 not only did they have you for things that you did at

19 Who's Who Worldwide, they had other possible charges

20 against you as well?

21 A That's correct.

22 Q Okay.

23 And they told you that they were thinking of
24 charging you with perjury for your testimony during the
25 course of the Reed litigation; is that right?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5887
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 A That's correct.

2 Q Did they also mention that they thought you might

3 have some tax problems as well?

4 A That I don't recall. I don't remember that.

5 Q And am I correct that during the course of the Reed

6 litigation, you had testified during a deposition that

7 there were no sales quotas at Who's Who Worldwide when in

8 fact there was sales quotas?

9 A Can I comment on this?

10 Q No. That's a yes or no?

11 A Yes.

12 Q So you knew that was a false statement you had made

13 and the government confronted you with that; is that

14 correct?

15 A That's correct.

16 Q N ow, am I correct that the government, just as

17 Mr. Myers told you during the course of this meeting, that

18 if you were convicted based upon the federal sentencing

19 guidelines, you faced a mandatory jail sentence; is that

20 right?

21 A That's correct.

22 Q And they told you that in their opinion that was just

23 what would happen if you went to trial because they felt
24 in their opinion they had sufficient evidence to prove a
25 case against you; is that right?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5888
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 A That's correct.

2 Q Okay.

3 Am I correct that they then also told you about

4 something called "section 5K1.1" of the federal sentencing

5 guidelines?

6 A I don't recall those numbers. If you could explain

7 it further.

8 Q Let me use it in layman's terms.

9 Am I correct durin g the course of this meeting,

10 Mr. White, Mr. Biegelman told you that they were

11 interested in acquiring your cooperation for testimony

12 against other people in Who's Who Worldwide as part of

13 their investigation?

14 A I don't know if that was the chain of events that

15 happened. I don't recall exactly. If I could elaborate

16 on that.

17 Q No.

18 Did you go there for the purpose based upon

19 discussions with your attorney, Mr. Myers --

20 A Yes.

21 Q -- That by going to see the government you might be

22 able to demonstrate to the government your utility as a

23 witness on their behalf?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And am I correct that Mr. Myers told you that if the

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5889
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 government felt that you would be useful as a witness on

2 their behalf then th ey would be in a position to decide

3 whether they wanted to utilize you as a cooperating

4 witness?

5 A That's correct.

6 Q And he told you, am I correct, that if the government

7 makes a determination that you are useful as a cooperating

8 witness in their investigation, then they can write a

9 letter to the Judge who would eventually sentence you in

10 the case, and in this instance it would be Judge Spatt,

11 and advise the Judge of the cooperation that you had

12 provided in their investigation; is that correct?

13 A That's correct.

14 Q And he told you if such a letter is written to the

15 Judge then the mandatory requirement under the federal

16 sentencing guidelines that you go to jail no longer

17 applies; is that right?

18 A No, that's not correct.

19 Q Well, did he tell you --

20 A That it no longer applies?

21 Q That once that le tter is written, the Judge has the

22 power to give you a sentence that's below what the

23 mandatory --
24 A Yes.
25 Q I may have phrased it wrong. It might have been

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5890
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 inartfully stated. I'll withdraw the question and restate

2 it.

3 Am I correct that your attorney and later the

4 government advised you that if the government files such a

5 letter with the Judge, it gives the Judge the power, in

6 Judge Spatt's discretion, to give you a sentence that is

7 lower than what the mandatory federal sentencing

8 guidelines require?

9 A That's correct.

10 Q Did either Inspector Biegelman or Ron White advise

11 you that based upon their experience in the prior

12 investigation which had taken place of Who's Who in

13 American Executives, the Steve West Company , that there

14 had been close to 20 cooperating witnesses who had been

15 employees?

16 A I don't recall that.

17 Q Were you advised at any point in time that 20 out of

18 20 of those cooperating witnesses, when it came time for

19 them to be sentenced in the West investigation, 20 out of

20 20 received nonjail sentences?

21 A Yes, but not in so many words. Yes.

22 Q Basically you learned before you made the decision to

23 become a cooperating witness that the odds, the chances
24 were pretty darn good that if you became a cooperating
25 witness and joined the government's team, there was a

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5891
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 pretty good chance that based upon this letter being filed

2 by the prosecution, you wouldn't go to jail; is that

3 right?

4 A I didn't -- I must answer it yes or no?

5 Q Yes.

6 A It's hard for me to answer yes to that.

7 Q You were hedging your bets somewhat, isn't that fair

8 to say?

9 A I was doing what I felt was right.

10 Q And in doing what you felt what was right was right

11 for you and your fiancee; is that right?

12 You didn't want to go to jail; is that correct?

13 A That's correct.

14 Q And you were told by your lawyer and you found out

15 based upon your own information that you had that nobody

16 from the West investigation who cooperated went to jail,

17 right?

18 A That's correct.

19 Q And that gave you a pretty good insight into making

20 odds that there was a darn good chance you wouldn't be

21 going to jail if you cooperated in this case; isn't that

22 right?

23 A Can I explain something?
24 Q No.
25 Answer it yes or no.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COUR T REPORTER
5892
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 A Yes, that was right.

2 Q Now, am I correct that while you were at this first

3 meeting you found out that the people running the

4 investigation were Ron White and Inspector Biegelman; is

5 that right?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q And those were the people that you met with about ten

8 times from April 1995 up to I guess yesterday or the day

9 before when you were last prepared for your testimony; is

10 that right?

11 A Ron White was --

12 Q You met with Mr. Pagano?

13 A Mr. Al Pagano, yes.

14 Q And would I be correct in stating that based upon the

15 information that you had and your meetings you had with

16 Mr. White you knew the person who you had to please, the

17 person who you had to provide information to, the person

18 who was going to write the letter to Judge Spatt on your

19 b ehalf was going to be Ron White; is that right?

20 A No, it's not.

21 Q Well, do you think somebody other than Mr. White was

22 going to write the letter?

23 A No, Mr. White was going to write the letter, but I
24 was not there to please him. To tell the truth.
25 MR. NELSON: I ask for a read back, please.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5893
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 THE COURT: May I have the question, please.

2 (Question read.)

3 THE COURT: The answer after the words that

4 Mr. White would write the letter, the rest of the answer

5 is stricken.

6 MR. WHITE: I think if you read the question

7 before the one that was read, Mr. Nelson asked him at the

8 same time you were to please Mr. White and Mr. White was

9 to write the letter. That's what he was responding.

10 THE COURT: Well, you respond to the question at

1 1 hand and not the one beforehand.

12 Your request is denied.

13 MR. NELSON: Thank you, Your Honor.

14 BY MR. NELSON:

15 Q Now, were you told that in order to acquire the

16 benefit of your cooperation, in other words, in order to

17 be in the position to be a cooperating witness and

18 eventually have the letter written to the Judge by

19 Mr. White, one of the requirements were going to be, you

20 were going to have to plead guilty; is that right?

21 A That's correct.

22 Q This first meeting you had with the government, that

23 was on April 18, 1995; is that right?
24 A Yes, that's correct.
25 Q And you didn't actually plead guilty until November

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5894
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 7, 1997; is that right?

2 A It was in '97. I think it was in September, though,

3 I'm not certain of that .

4 Q Are you aware that this trial started on January 12,

5 1998?

6 A No, I wasn't aware of that. Exactly when the trial

7 started, that is.

8 Q Were you aware that the trial was supposed to start

9 in the beginning of November of 1997?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And you pled guilty literally on the eve of what was

12 the scheduled date for the trial of this case; isn't that

13 right?

14 A Yes.

15 Q And that was two years after you first met with the

16 government, right?

17 A That's correct.

18 Q I guess it took you a pretty long time to decide

19 whether or not you were going to actually enter that

20 guilty plea, didn't it, sir?

21 Yes or no?

22 A Well, could you repeat that again?

23 Q I guess it took you a pretty long time to decide
24 whether or not you were actually going to enter that
25 guilty plea; is that correct, sir?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5895
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 A Yes.

2 Q I want to back up here a little bit in time.

3 You told us that you started working at Who's Who

4 Worldwide in 1990; is that right?

5 A That's correct.

6 Q At the time the company was in Port Washington,

7 correct?

8 A Yes.

9 Q As I told you just before, I represent Frank Martin.

10 A I understand.

11 Q When you started working at the company, Frank wasn't

12 working there yet; is that correct?

13 A That's correct.

14 Q He came after you, correct?

15 A That's correct.

16 Q The company moved from Port Washington to Lake

17 Success in 1991; is that right?

18 A I believe at the end of 1991, yes, that's right.

19 Q And am I correct that Frank Martin didn't come to

20 work at Who's Who Worldwide until shortly aft er the

21 company moved to Lake Success?

22 A That's correct.

23 Q Now, I believe yesterday you mentioned something
24 about using a computer list to call customers, that you
25 did that on, I believe you testified, on one occasion?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5896
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 A Yes.

2 Q I believe it was your testimony that that occurred

3 while the company was in Port Washington; is that correct?

4 A That's correct.

5 Q So that occurred in a point of time that Frank Martin

6 was not working for Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct?

7 A That's correct.

8 Q And in your five years of employment at Who's Who

9 Worldwide, that was the only occasion where you recall

10 using a computer printout; is that correct?

11 A That is not correct.

12 Q How many times had you used a computer printout for

13 customers?

14 A Could you repeat that, please?

15 Q The only time that you were provided with a computer

16 printout for the purpose of calling customers was when you

17 were in Port Washington; is that correct?

18 A That's not correct.

19 Q Now, am I correct that when Frank Martin came to work

20 at the company initially, he didn't come in as a sales

21 manager, he came in as a salesman just as you are?

22 A I don't recall that. I looked to Mr. Martin as the

23 manager.
24 Q Do you recall a few months after he started working
25 in the Lake Success office, he became a sales manager,

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5897
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 then I believe a group leader?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Let me back up for one moment.

4 I had asked you a question just before about the

5 use of the lists, and you indicated that there were other

6 times where computer lists were provided to you after

7 being in Port Washington; is that correct?

8 A That's correct.

9 Q Am I correct that the other times that you were

10 provided with these lists, those lists were lists of

11 people who were already members of Who's Who Worldwide and

12 it was for either upgrades or renewals of memberships?

13 A Not correct.

14 Q When Frank Martin worked at Who's Who Worldwide with

15 you initially --

16 A Can you go back to the previous question before?

17 Q Sure.

18 A Repeat the question, please.

19 Q The question I had asked you, you testified

20 previously that one time in 1990, while in Port

21 Washington, you had been given computerized lists of

22 people to call?

23 A Nonmembers, that's correct.
24 Q At a later point in time am I correct that any
25 computer lists that you were provided were lists of people

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5898
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 who either were former members of Who's Who Worldwide who

2 are now eligible for renewals or people who were eligible

3 for upgrades? I think that's the question you were asking

4 to go back to.

5 A Yes, I used lists of members for upgrades. I did.

6 And also other lists to sell, similar to the lists that

7 were used in 1991 at or in 1990 at Port Washington.

8 Q And that was used for purposes of renewal of

9 customers?

10 A Not renewals, to sell. That's why I mentioned it.

11 Q Now, am I correct that Mr. Martin worked for Who's

12 Who Worldwide from 1991 to 1992 and then he left the

13 company?

14 A That's correct, approximately.

15 Q And during that period of time from 1991 to 1992, you

16 had been working at the co mpany for about two years before

17 he even came on board; is that right?

18 A That's correct.

19 Q So he was a lot more -- you were a lot more senior

20 than he in the sales department, so to speak, is that

21 right, at least in Who's Who Worldwide?

22 A As far as attendance is concerned, yes.

23 Q Am I correct that in addition to Frank Martin, there
24 were a number of other group leaders who were working at
25 Who's Who Worldwide in '91 and '92?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5899
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 A That's -- other group leaders. I don't recall it

2 just being one group leader in Port Washington.

3 Q And who was that?

4 A There was a girl by the name of Blanch Brody, or

5 Blanch Brown, one or two names but it's the same person.

6 Q When the company moved from Port Washington to Lake

7 Success, the company sta rted to expand and there were more

8 group leaders who came in?

9 A That's correct.

10 Q Am I correct during the five-year period of time you

11 were employed at Who's Who Worldwide, there were a fair

12 number of group leaders that both came and went from the

13 company? There was a turnover of people who were group

14 leaders?

15 A Yes, there was.

16 Q There was a group leader by the name of Ed Shaeffer

17 and a James White?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Tom Randall?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Mike Powers?

22 A Yes, there was a Mike Powers there.

23 Q Could you tell us the names of some of the other
24 people who you remember were group leaders during that
25 five-year period of time that you were employed at Who's

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5900
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 Who?

2 A Tara Green. Another group leader was Walsh, Tina.

3 Q W-A-L-S-H?

4 A Yes. Tina, T-I-N-A.

5 Another group leader, his last name is Beck,

6 B-E-C-K, I don't recall his first name.

7 I mentioned Tara Green, of course.

8 That's all that comes to my mind right now.

9 Q Would I be correct that while those are the names of

10 the people you recollect right now, there were a fair

11 number of group leaders who came and went during that

12 five-year period of time?

13 A Yes, that's correct.

14 Q Would it maybe be twice the number of people you had

15 mentioned so far?

16 A I would say that.

17 Q Three times, possibly?

18 A Might be stretching a little bit but it could be.

19 Q At least two times?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Am I correct, other than Frank Martin and Tara Green

22 sitting here, none of the other group leaders who worked

23 at Who's Who Worldwide during th e five-year period of time
24 who worked there are in this courtroom today?
25 A That's correct.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5901
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 Q Basically only the group leader -- the only group

2 leaders here on trial are the ones who had happened to be

3 working at Who's Who Worldwide on the day that the search

4 warrant was executed on March 30, 1995; is that right?

5 A Better repeat that question again.

6 Q Basically the people who are on trial here today, the

7 group leaders, are the people who were the group leaders

8 that were working in Who's Who Worldwide on the date the

9 search warrant was executed, right?

10 A Correct.

11 Q Now, as of the time that Frank Martin became a group

12 leader, you told us you would have been a salesperson for

13 two years or close to two years at Who's Who Worldwide; is

14 that right?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And before that you had been a salesperson at West;

17 is that right?

18 A That's correct.

19 Q And that was for about five months I believe you

20 testified?

21 A That's correct.

22 Q Now, Frank Martin never worked at the Steve West

23 Company; is that right?
24 A Not while I was there, no.
25 Q Would I be correct that since Mr. Martin came into

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5902
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 the company after you and you had been in the sales

2 business for some period of time before him, he hadn't

3 trained you when you came to work at Who's Who Worldwide;

4 is that right?

5 A That's correct.

6 Q And would I be correct that Frank Martin was

7 primarily responsible for supervising the new sales

8 personnel?

9 A That's correct.

10 Q And am I correct that just as there was a pretty big

11 turnover in the group leaders at Who's Who Worldwide,

12 there was likewise a fairly large turnover in the

13 salespersons, particularly the newer salespersons?

14 A That's correct.

15 Q And the large part of Frank Martin's job consisted of

16 teaching the new salesperson to follow the presentations;

17 is that correct?

18 A That's correct.

19 Q He would teach them to go through the presentation,

20 to follow the presentation, and he would walk up and down

21 the aisles sort of making sure they were following the

22 presentation; is that right?

23 A That's correct.
24 Q And that was the sales presentation that had been
25 provided by Bruce Gordon; is that right?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5903
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 A That's correct.

2 Q And the group leaders spent a lot of their time

3 making sure that the new people were sticking to the

4 presentation; is that right?

5 A That's correct.

6 Q And the group leaders would also hand out the cards,

7 the lead cards that had been given to them from the

8 administration department; is that correct?

9 A That's correct.

10 Q And you had nothing to do with the initial receipt of

11 the lead cards from the mail. You didn't go through the

12 mail and go through the lead cards; is that correct?

13 A That's correct.

14 Q And the group leaders, they had nothing to do with

15 that either. That was an administration department

16 function; is that correct?

17 A I wouldn't know that.

18 Q Well, to your knowledge, the lead cards were reviewed

19 by the administration department in the conference room

20 before they were given to the group leaders; isn't that

21 right?

22 A I couldn't really address that. I don't know.

23 Q So --
24 A The group leaders gave me the cards.
25 Q So correct me if I don't understand. In your five

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5904
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 years of working at Who's Who Worldwide, you didn't know

2 and you weren't aware of what procedures were followed by

3 the company from the time the lead cards arrived or the

4 nomination cards arrived and their transfer from whomever

5 to the group leaders?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q And in essence your function began when the group

8 leaders gave you cards in the morning; is that right?

9 A That's correct.

10 Q And in the entire five years you worked there it was

11 sort of a mystery as to where and how and in what manner

12 these cards were accumulated and sorted out; is that

13 correct?

14 A That's correct.

15 Q Were you aware of a woman by the name of Liz Sautter

16 as an employee of Who's Who Worldwide?

17 A I was aware of a girl named Liz. I don't recall her

18 last name.

19 Q She was there even before you started there; isn't

20 that right?

21 A There was a Liz there, yes.

22 Q Did you have any dealings with her in the five years

23 you were there?
24 A When you say "dealings," what do you mean by
25 "dealings"?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5905
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 Q Did you work with her in any capacity?

2 A Not directly with her.

3 Q Did she have an office at Lake Success?

4 A No. She -- I'm sorry, Lake Success.

5 Q Lake Success?

6 A Sorry.

7 Q It's not a trick question. Lake Success.

8 A She worked in the administration office. I don't

9 know if she had her own office within there, I don't

10 know. But she worked in an administrative capacity in the

11 back office.

12 Q Did you ever go to that office?

13 A I wasn't allowed in there.

14 Q Am I correct that neither you nor any of the other

15 members of the sales staff were allowed into the

16 administration offices?

17 A Well, I wasn't, that's for sure.

18 Q And were you aware of any other members of the sales

19 staff who you worked with during the five-year period of

20 time that were allowed in there?

21 A Repeat the question again.

22 Q During the five years you worked at the company, you

23 were never permitted to go into the sales office?
24 A That's correct, I wasn't.
25 Q Were you specifically instructed by somebody that you

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5906
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 couldn't go there?

2 A Yes, Mr. Gordon.

3 Q And did he give that instruction to other members of

4 the sales staff in your presence?

5 A I don't remember saying in my presence, directing

6 that to the sales staff or the managers, in other words.

7 He directed it to my attention. Went to sales.

8 Q He told you personally, you, Alan Saffer can't come

9 into the administration office?

10 A No.

11 Q Directing most of the sales force?

12 A Anybody in that sales force caught in that office is

13 fired, or something like that. He didn't want them in

14 there.

15 Q He didn't give it just as a directive but as a

16 forceful warning, "if you go into that office you're

17 fired;" is that correct?

18 A That's correct.

19 Q Now, after you received the lead cards and made the

20 calls to customers and you were actually able to make a

21 sale , you filled out a form which is called an order form;

22 is that right?

23 A That's correct.
24 Q And am I correct that you took that order form or
25 those order forms were picked up at some point in time

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5907
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 during the course of the day and brought into another

2 office?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Who picked them up?

5 A Usually the manager.

6 Q And where would they be brought?

7 A I don't know where they were brought actually.

8 Q So during the five-year period of time that you were

9 in the company, you have no idea what happened with the

10 order forms after you prepared them and then submitted

11 them to the sales office?

12 A I wouldn't have an idea. I could only assume that it

13 went to the back office.

14 Q Do you know a person by the name of Wendi Springer

15 who worked for the company?

16 A Yes.

17 Q Were you aware of the fact that she reviewed the

18 order forms?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Were you aware of the fact that she returned order

21 forms to people when she felt that people weren't

22 qualified for membership?

23 A I'm not certain of that.
24 Q Did you have any dealings with Wendi Springer in
25 terms of your order forms, that you recall?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5908
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 A Not that I recall.

2 Q Am I correct that Wendi Springer worked under Debra

3 Benjamin?

4 A That I wouldn't know. The chain of command I

5 wouldn't know.

6 Q So you weren't familiar in the office where Wendi

7 Springer worked either; is that correct?

8 A That's correct.

9 Q By the way, Ms. Benjamin, that's somebody who you do

10 know; is that correct?

11 A Yes.

12 Q In fact, am I correct that you introduced

13 Ms. Benjamin to Bruce Gordon leading to her employment at

14 Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct?

15 A That's correct.

16 Q Ms. Benjamin eventually ran the Public Affairs Office

17 at Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct?

18 A That's correct.

19 Q And she was responsible for bringing in a lot of the

20 additional benefits that were provided to members from

21 1992 up until the time the search warrant was executed on

22 the companies?

23 A Yes.
24 I don't know if I can answer that yes or no. I
25 wasn't aware of her duties exactly.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5909
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 Q Were you aware that Debra Benjamin was instrumental

2 in establishing Tribute magazine?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And you had d iscussed that with her and you were

5 aware of that; is that right?

6 A That's not totally correct. Part of that question.

7 Q Would I be fair in saying that other than your job in

8 the sales department you had little, if no knowledge of

9 what occurred in any of the other departments in Who's Who

10 Worldwide despite your employment there for over five

11 years?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And would it be fair to say that that was as a result

14 of the fact that the company's policy was to

15 compartmentalize the various different departments?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And when I say the company's policy, that's a policy

18 that was articulated to you by Bruce Gordon; is that

19 correct?

20 A That's correct.

21 Q And as a result of that, you were aware that your job

22 was to make sales, to follow the script and to attempt to

23 acquire memberships in Who's Who W orldwide; is that right?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q And your job was not to find out what was happening

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5910
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 in other departments in the company. That was none of

2 your business, correct?

3 A Correct.

4 Q Okay.

5 Now, am I correct that you were aware of the fact

6 that Frank Martin left Who's Who Worldwide in November of

7 1992?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And during the period of time that he was there from

10 November of 1991 to November of 1992, were you working

11 during that period of time for a large percentage of time

12 in the black room with the higher selling sales group of

13 salespeople in --

14 A In Port Washington?

15 Q This would have been in Lake Success. After you

16 first moved to Lake Success, '91 to '92.

17 A You better repeat that.

18 Q Sure.

19 It's my understanding, based upon a review of

20 documents and you might have a better recollection, but

21 during the end of 1991 the company moved from Port

22 Washington to Lake Success.

23 A Yes, that's correct.
24 Q And Frank Martin worked at the company initially from
25 late November of 1991 until mid-November of 1992; is that

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5911
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 correct?

2 A That's correct.

3 Q And during that period of time, the period of time

4 when he was first at the company and the company was at

5 Lake Success, did you work in the black room during that

6 period of time?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Would I be correct in stating that since Mr. Martin's

9 functions during that year period of time was almost

10 predominantly to train and supervise new sales personnel,

11 you had little, if anything, to do with Mr. Martin during

12 that period of time?

13 A That's correct.

14 Q Wouldn't it be fair in stating other than possibly

15 giving you lead cards in the morning on occasion, that was

16 about the only dealings you had with him; is that right?

17 A That's correct.

18 Q Now, am I correct that after Mr. Martin left Who's

19 Who Worldwide in late 1992, you became aware that there

20 was litigation pending between Who's Who Worldwide and

21 Reed Elsevier?

22 A Yes, after.

23 MR. NELSON: Your Honor, being 12:30, I'm moving
24 into another area. This might be an appropriate area to
25 break.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5912
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 THE COURT: Very well.

2 We'll recess until 1:30 for lunch.

3 Do not discuss the case among yourselves or

4 any one else. Keep an open mind. Come to no conclusions.

5 We'll recess until 1:30.

6 Have a nice lunch.

7 (Jury exits.)

8 (Out of the presence of the jury.)

9 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, may we discuss one brief

10 point?

11 THE COURT: Yes.

12 MR. WHITE: We have a witness who is a customer

13 from out of town. With the Court's permission, at some

14 point when it is appropriate with the defense attorneys if

15 we can insert him with Mr. Saffer. I think I got a

16 preliminary indication yesterday that that was okay.

17 THE COURT: Well, we'll interrupt after

18 Mr. Nelson concludes his cross-examination.

19 How much longer do you have, Mr. Nelson?

20 MR. NELSON: About a half-hour, Judge.

21 If the Court wishes I'll interrupt my

22 cross-examination and allow the witness to testify and

23 then I'll continue from there.
24 THE COURT: Very well. We'll continue at 1:30.
25 MR. NEVILLE: Your Honor, before Mr. Nelson

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5913
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 begins his cross-examination, would you be willing to

2 instruct the jury that Mr. Saffer pleaded guilty for his

3 own reasons?

4 THE COURT: Yes.

5 MR. NEVILLE: And that the fact that he was

6 charged --

7 THE COURT: Yes, that's a personal decision not

8 binding on anybody.

9 MR. NEVILLE: Thank you.

10 THE COURT: Especially on the defendants.

11 (Luncheon recess taken.)

12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22

23
24
25
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5914
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N.

2 MR. TRABULUS: Judge, I think th ey need another

3 30 seconds.

4 THE COURT: All right.

5 (Jury enters.)

6 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the

7 jury. Members of the jury, before I take the next

8 witness, I want to tell you that the witness who has been

9 testifying, Alan Saffer, has pled guilty to a crime

10 arising out of another charge against him. You are

11 instructed that you are to draw no conclusions or

12 inferences of any kind about the guilt of the defendants

13 on trial from the fact that this witness pled guilty to

14 another charge. The decision of that witness to plead

15 guilty was a personal decision about his own guilt. It

16 may not be used by you in any way as evidence against the

17 defendants here on trial.

18 You may proceed.

19 MS. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honor.

20 The government call also Fred Simmen.

21 (Continued.)

22

23

24
25

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5915
Simmen-direct/Scott


1 F R E D G. S I M M E N , having been first duly sworn

2 by the Clerk of the Court, was examined and testified as

3 follows:

4 THE WITNESS: Fred G. Simmen.

5 THE COURT: How do you spell your last name?

6 THE WITNESS: S-I-M-M-E-N.

7 DIRECT EXAMINATION

8 BY MS. SCOTT:

9 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Simmen.

10 A Good afternoon.

11 Q Could you tell us where you live?

12 A I currently live in western Kentucky, Marshal County,

13 on the shores of Kentucky Lake.

14 THE COURT: You say in western Kentucky?

15 THE WITNESS: Western. About 40 miles east of

16 Paducah. If anybody heard of Paducah.

17 THE COURT: I know it well.

18 THE WITNESS: Biggest city, around 29,000

19 people.

20 BY MS. SCOTT:

21 Q Can you tel l us a little bit about your background?

22 A Well, I was born four miles out of New York City in

23 New Jersey.
24 THE COURT: Now you're talking my language?
25 A But I ended up in a place out of my own choosing. I

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5916
Simmen-direct/Scott


1 like the clean air, lack of traffic and heavy population.

2 But I graduated from high school in Rahway, New

3 Jersey and shortly after enlisted in the United States

4 Navy in World War II. I had a 17 year-old kiddie cruise,

5 a 17 to 21 type of thing and got in the aviation type of

6 program and got in the Navy and busted out of that

7 program.

8 And I went overseas as a seaman and served in the

9 Mariana occupation.

10 I was with an amphibious group involved in the

11 invasion of Guam and stayed there most of the war.

12 Q Did you go to the school after the war was over?

13 A Thanks to the GI Bill, I did. I went to Rutger's

14 University and got a degree in ceramic engineering.

15 Q What is ceramic engineering?

16 A Sort of like a specialized chemical engineering,

17 deals with the interactions of temperatures in a kiln

18 where things are physically changed from the raw mineral

19 to the hard, structural, useful material. And a ceramic

20 engineer is fully knowledgeable about the processes of

21 achieving taking the raw material and making a finished

22 product. And also the compositions involved, how to

23 attain physical properties by modifying the composition of
24 the materials, the proportions and things like that.
25 Q Did you practice as a ceramic engineer in the United

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5917
Simmen-direct/Scott


1 States?

2 A Yes. I've worked for various companies in the

3 Trenton area which is the headquarters of ceramics in New

4 Jersey for about ten years and then I went to East

5 Liverpool, Ohio which is the pottery center of the United

6 States as far as making cups, saucers, plates,

7 dinnerware. I was the researcher for products for 13

8 years there.

9 I later moved to western Kentucky to take over as

10 vice-president of an organization that had just bought out

11 -- I became vice-president afterwards. I was technical

12 director of this plant in western Kentucky that had been

13 purchased by Boise Cascade which at that time they were

14 conglomerating all of these companies, they

15 deconglomerated but they wanted somebody from the inside

16 that could go out there and work for them.

17 Q Did you work in any other companies as an engineer?

18 A Later. After I moved to western Kentucky and I liked

19 it, for two years after I got that job in Mayfield,

20 Kentucky, that's in Graves County, about 30 miles where I

21 lived on the lake. I bought a place on the lake and I

22 said I'm not going to move anymore.

23 THE COURT: Sounds good.
24 A I have hickory trees, and when I lived in New Jersey
25 I had to go a couple miles to see it.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5918
Simmen-direct/Scott


1 Q Can you tell us which foreign countries you worked

2 in?

3 A Yes, Korea, Japan, Venezuela and Papua, New Guinea.

4 Q Have you ever been contacted by a company called

5 Who's Who Worldwide?

6 A Yes, I certainly was.

7 Q And can you tell us approximately when that was?

8 A Late '93 I would think. Or maybe probably the last

9 couple of months in January or really early '94.

10 Q How were you contacted by the company?

11 A As I recall I got something in the mail that

12 indicated that they had my name and would I be interested

13 in this thing or something.

14 Q Did you fill out a form and send it to the company?

15 A Yes, I did, but --

16 Q I'm showing you Government's Exhibit 43-D, as in

17 Daniel, for Identification.

18 A That's my signature, my writing, and there's other

19 notes on it that were made by somebody else.

20 Q Is that the form you filled out and sent to Who's Who

21 Worldwide?

22 A Yes.

23 MS. SCOTT: I offer Government's Exhibit 43-D.
24 THE COURT: Any objection?
25 MR. TRABULUS: No.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5919
Simmen-direct/Scott


1 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 43-D in

2 evidence.

3 (Government's Exhibit 43-D received in evidence.)

4 BY MS. SCOTT:

5 Q Mr. Simmen, if you look at that card can you see a

6 postmark on the front?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Can you tell us what that postmark says?

9 A Like a lot of the postmarks, it's kind of pale but it

10 looks like 16th of January 1994.

11 Q And if you look at the other side of it, in the lower

12 right-hander, do you see a code there in blue letters?

13 A Yes. It says "Executive Group WT," whatever that

14 means.

15 Q Were you contacted in other ways by the company?

16 A It's evident by the notes on here, but I received a

17 phone call from a gentleman from that company and he asked

18 me, well --

19 Q Can you tell us what happened when this man called

20 you?

21 A He asked me for some additional information because

22 this only gave a very limited amount of information and

23 said I was a consulting engineer, had my own company, FGS
24 Consulting Services, and what area of e ngineering I was
25 in. He wanted more information.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5920
Simmen-direct/Scott


1 Q Did you give him additional information?

2 A Yes.

3 Q And what else did he ask you or tell you?

4 A Well, he asked me some detail of the type of work

5 I've done and where and I gave him a cursory synopsis of

6 that, but it really wasn't much, it was brief. He

7 indicated that that was adequate.

8 Q What did he tell you he needed the information for?

9 A Well, I don't remember him telling me outright in so

10 many words, but as I understood it, it was to determine if

11 I was worthy of becoming a member of this Who's Who and it

12 was evidently -- I asked them how they got my name and

13 they said somebody in the membership nominated you, see,

14 somebody who was familiar with your -- or nominated or

15 may be there was another word, maybe just suggested that he

16 contact me, and he said someone familiar with your area of

17 performance. And I said, who? And he said, we can't tell

18 you that. But you can find out when you get the

19 directory, you can look him up.

20 Q What, if anything, did he tell you you would get if

21 you joined this group?

22 A I believe he mentioned a plaque and you would have

23 your name in the Who's Who directory. But he also implied
24 there would be certain values of having your name in this
25 directory because people of importance would be perusing

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5921
Simmen-direct/Scott


1 that and say hey, here's a fellow we can use to help us

2 along with our problems, something to that degree. None

3 of which appealed to me very strongly -- my interest in

4 this was all my life I heard of Who's Who.

5 You know, they would say -- they would give

6 somebody's brief bio situation and they would say it is in

7 Who's Who. I would not go to the library but I thought

8 there were a lot of important folks in that, therefore,

9 this had a big appeal to my ego. It wasn't anything that

10 he was telling me, it was my own -- I wanted to increase

11 myself esteem or something like that or pride, which pride

12 is a basic symbol that the devil kicked out of heaven. He

13 was an angel up there but, you know.

14 Q If, in fact, your name had been taken from a mailing

15 list as opposed to selection by another member, would you

16 have agreed to join this organization?

17 A Would you repeat that? I kind of missed out on some

18 of your first words.

19 Q If, in fact, your name had been taken from a mailing

20 list rather than by nomination or selection by another

21 member, would you have agreed to join this organization?

22 A No, I would have trashed the thing as soon as I saw

23 it. But I'm usually a very careful individual. But this
24 got me at a weak point where, yeah, I finally arrived
25 here, you know. You don't want to get caught up in your

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5922
Simmen-direct/Scott


1 own self importance because you usually end up with

2 problems.

3 Q Can you tell us why you wouldn't have joined if your

4 name was taken from a mailing list?

5 A Because I get a bundle of mail this big every day

6 (indicating) and then I have to sort it. Most of it is

7 discarded and it's mailing list stuff. Sometimes I can

8 spot it because one of these goofy outfits misspells my

9 name and then they sell it to other lists and they

10 misspell it all the other way. Really the governme nt

11 should be getting after all that junk mail. I guess this

12 is one of it.

13 MR. TRABULUS: Objection.

14 THE COURT: Strike out the statement. The jury

15 is instructed to disregard it.

16 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

17 BY MS. SCOTT:

18 Q Mr. Simmen, did you agree to make a purchase from the

19 company?

20 A Yes. I agreed somewheres along the lines, during a

21 phone conversation with the individual involved in this

22 company, to pay a basic amount of money for being a member

23 of the organization and along with that came the plaque
24 and I don't know what.
25 Q Do you remember how much you paid?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5923
Simmen-direct/Scott


1 A $97.

2 Q And do you remember how you paid for it?

3 A With a credit card.

4 Q How did you give your credit card number to the

5 company?

6 A By the telephone. He was there on the phone on the

7 other end. Maybe that's not smart. If I knew who he was

8 dealing with I might not.

9 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, move to strike.

10 THE COURT: Yes. "By phone" that answer will

11 stand. The rest of the answer is stricken. The jury is

12 instructed to disregard it.

13 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. I'm sorry.

14 THE COURT: Just listen to the questions and

15 answer responsively, Mr. Simmen.

16 THE WITNESS: Okay.

17 BY MS. SCOTT:

18 Q Mr. Simmen, showing you Government's Exhibit 43-B, as

19 in Baker.

20 A Yes.

21 Q Do you recognize that?

22 A Yes. I have a yellow copy that came to me somewhere

23 in the mail of this.
24 Q And would you say an off-yellow copy that you
25 received in the mail?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5924
Si mmen-direct/Scott


1 A Yes, after this transaction was completed.

2 Q And is that an invoice that commemorates the

3 transaction in which you purchased this membership from

4 Who's Who Worldwide?

5 A It's a two-year membership (perusing) and one Who's

6 Who business leaders registration.

7 Q Does that document memorialize your purchase from

8 Who's Who Worldwide?

9 A Yes.

10 MS. SCOTT: I offer 43-B, as in Baker.

11 THE COURT: Any objection?

12 MR. TRABULUS: No.

13 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 43-B in

14 evidence.

15 (Government's Exhibit 43-B received in evidence.)

16 BY MS. SCOTT:

17 Q If you take a look at that document, can you tell us

18 the date that appears there?

19 A 9th of March of '94.

20 Q And what does that invoice show you paying for your

21 membership from Who's Who Worldwide?

22 A $97. That's what I'm paying. Wait a minute.

23 There's a tax or something. Sales tax of $7, so it comes
24 to 104 on the bottom.
25 Q And now, Mr. Simmen, I will show you Government's

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5925
Simmen-direct/Scott


1 Exhibit 43-C, as in Charles, which is in evidence. It's

2 an order form.

3 If you take a look at the upper right-hand corner

4 of that order form do you see a name that appears there?

5 A Yes.

6 Q What is that name?

7 A Steve Walden. He said he got a 2 percent commission.

8 MS. SCOTT: Your Honor, may I publish these

9 exhibits, 43-B, C and D?

10 THE COURT: Yes.

11 BY MS. SCOTT:

12 Q Now, Mr. Simmen, did you receive a plaque from Who's

13 Who Worldwide?

14 A Yes, I did.

15 Q And did you purchase a directory from the company?

16 A That invoice shows an invoice and I got an invoice

17 but I don't remember whether that was the transaction or

18 not that came with that. I believe so. But the two

19 things, I don't think they arrived at the same time.

20 That's what I'm a little bit foggy on.

21 Q When you received the directory, what was your

22 reaction to it?

23 MR. JENKS: Objection.
24 THE COURT: Sustained.
25 BY MS. SCOTT:

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5926
Simmen-direct/Scott


1 Q When you received the directory, what did you do with

2 it?

3 A Well, the first thing I did was try to find Mr. X,

4 the guy who brought my name forward to this company. Now,

5 there's around 1400 or 1500 pages in this thing and 40

6 names on the page. So you do a little multiplication and

7 you will see it will take a long time to peruse each

8 page. But I had in my mind numerous individual s who I

9 worked with and knew my expertise and new how effective

10 that was. So I looked in there alphabetically and I found

11 nothing, and I got a rather dismal impression by looking

12 at that because I couldn't see any names that I was

13 familiar with or I would say I would glad to be associated

14 with this person.

15 Q Why is that?

16 A Why is that?

17 Q Yes.

18 A By this time it had dawned on me more than likely

19 this was a mailing list origin and not somebody who knew

20 me personally who put my name and that as I say has a

21 lower -- the mailing list, that is.

22 Q Did you ever use the book to contact anybody?

23 A Not once.
24 Q Did anyone ever call you that they were a member of
25 Who's Who Worldwide and they had seen your name in the

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5927
Simmen-direct/Scott


1 book?

2 A Never.

3 Q Did you receive any other items from the company

4 aside from any other ones you've described?

5 A The plaque. I mentioned that of course. I got a

6 copy of a magazine that they put out, just one single

7 issue, I guess it was to see if I wanted to subscribe to

8 that too.

9 Q Did you receive any other offers?

10 A They mentioned a CD ROM which would be good if you

11 were looking up people from a specific category or

12 something like this. The CD ROMS, I understand, the

13 computers have a way of giving you quick access to

14 things. I didn't have a computer so a CD ROM would be

15 worthless to me.

16 What else?

17 That's it, I guess.

18 MS. SCOTT: Now, if I might retrieve the lead

19 card, Government's Exhibit 43-D for a moment.

20 THE COURT: Sure. The juror will give it up

21 willingly.

2 2 MS. SCOTT: Placing Government's 43-D one more

23 time in front of Mr. Simmen.
24 BY MS. SCOTT:
25 Q Mr. Simmen, if you can just take a look again at that

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5928
Simmen-direct/Scott


1 code on the lower right-hand corner.

2 A Executive Group WT?

3 Q Yes.

4 Now, I would ask you to take a look at

5 Government's Exhibit 226 which is in evidence, a

6 solicitation letter on Who's Who Worldwide letterhead.

7 Do you see several listings there that say

8 Executive Group with letters after them?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And do you see on the second line from the top of

11 that group?

12 A Executive Group WT.

13 Q Is that the same code you read off of Government's

14 Exhibit 43-D?

15 A That's correct.

16 MS. SCOTT: Your Honor, I would ask to publish

17 Government's Exhibit 226 and once again 43-D.

18 THE COURT: Very well.

19 MS. SCOTT: Thank you.

20 I have no further questions.

21 Thank you, Mr. Simmen.

22 THE COURT: Cross-examination.

23 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.
24 (Continued.)
25

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5929
Simmen-cross/Trabulus


1 CROSS-EXAMINATION

2 BY MR. TRABULUS:

3 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Simmen. My name is Norman

4 Trabulus and the gentleman sitting next to me is my

5 client. I sometimes speak quickly so if I go too quickly

6 for you, let me know and I'll slow down.

7 A Go ahead, I want to get out of here.

8 Q Did you want to come here? Did you want to come

9 here?

10 A Yes. But the reason I want to get out, my daughter,

11 she works in Queens and I want to see her when she gets

12 off of work. She is a school teacher.

13 Q The govern ment served a subpoena on you?

14 A Right.

15 Q I won't keep you too long.

16 You say when you got the book you were

17 dissatisfied?

18 A That's right.

19 Q Did you request a refund?

20 A No.

21 Q Did you call up to make a complaint and see whether

22 or not you might get a refund?

23 A No.
24 Q Do you know whether or not you would have gotten one
25 if you had done that?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5930
Simmen-cross/Trabulus


1 A I figured I made a mistake and it was my own doing

2 (indicating) and it -- and I just believed if you're dumb

3 enough to buy something like that, you deserve to have the

4 problem.

5 Q What I gather from what you told us, you weren't

6 interested in actually using your membership to contact

7 other people in the ceramic field or in the related

8 indu stries, right?

9 A I know almost everybody in the American ceramics

10 field, in the American Ceramics Society. I've been in

11 there since 1947, going to all their conventions and

12 meetings.

13 Q Is it fair to say when you bought it you weren't

14 interested in networking; is that correct?

15 A Exactly right.

16 Q Although you didn't tell the salesman who was selling

17 you that that you weren't interested in networking, did

18 you?

19 Did you -- when you were on the phone with the

20 man who spoke with you, did you tell him "I really didn't

21 want to network"?

22 A At that time I was winding down my business

23 activity. I was of retirement age, I was over 65.
24 Q So is it fair to say, sir, that you did not tell the
25 man who was speaking to you that you were really not

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5931
Simmen-cross/Trabulus


1 interested in networking?

2 A I didn't tell him that I wasn't interested in

3 networking because I don't even use that term.

4 Q And he, in fact, went on to tell you about the

5 CD ROM?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And he didn't know that you weren't really interested

8 in networking, did he? He would have no way of knowing

9 that.

10 A I agree with you on that, yes.

11 Q And you mentioned that you know most everybody in

12 ceramics. Do you know Richard H. Bell, of Bell Ceramic?

13 A I knew Dick Bell when he had the clay mines in

14 Tennessee and then he had Bell Ceramic.

15 Q In Florida?

16 A What?

17 Q Florida?

18 A No, he had this thing in West Virginia where they

19 made pyrometric cones.

20 THE COURT: Cones, C-O-N-E-S?

21 A Little things when they melt and you put four of them

22 in a plaque and t he first one melts down, the second one

23 is supposed to stop and third one hooks a little bit. If
24 the thing gets over-fired they all come down. Somebody
25 can look into a peep hole and tell whether your kiln is

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5932
Simmen-cross/Trabulus


1 functioning --

2 THE COURT: Good thing I'm a lawyer and not in

3 your business.

4 BY MR. TRABULUS:

5 Q Mr. Simmen, do you know a David W. Bobrek, the

6 president of Blasch Precision Ceramic?

7 A No, and I never heard of this company either.

8 Q Okay.

9 A There's a little -- there's a lot of little

10 rinky-dink outfits.

11 Q Harold G. Bouthton, chairman and CEO of JBC, Inc., do

12 you know him?

13 A No, never heard of JBC Inc., whatever the hell it is.

14 Q How about Charles W. Connex of Magneto Metric, Inc.?

15 Okay, I will no t go through, in any event, the

16 first one you knew.

17 A Yeah, he's still alive but I think Dick Bell is

18 dead. Dick Bell flew a B-29.

19 THE COURT: And they were based in Guam, right?

20 THE WITNESS: He was based out of China.

21 BY MR. TRABULUS:

22 Q Let's say he was alive and a memeber of Who's Who

23 Worldwide, which I can represent to you that he's -- I
24 can't represent to you that he was alive. Anyway, I'll
25 represent that he became a member of Who's Who Worldwide.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5933
Simmen-cross/Trabulus


1 Do you think if in fact you had been interested or

2 somebody else who was in ceramics who was interested in

3 networking, that would be a useful person to possibly be

4 in contact with?

5 A Having known the guy for 35 years, I don't see what I

6 was gaining by that.

7 Q Yo u wouldn't.

8 But let's say somebody who didn't know the guy,

9 somebody who was interested in networking with other

10 people in ceramics, do you think he would have been a

11 suitable person to network with?

12 A Not really, because he was in sales. He sold

13 materials. They don't give you much -- the guy that is

14 running the materials company isn't much of a prospect for

15 you to get jobs within your own end. Unless he knows

16 other customers that need your help and would refer you.

17 Q That could happen.

18 When you got -- when you spoke to the gentleman

19 on the phone about the directory, did he tell you what the

20 directory would look like, what a page of the directory

21 would look like?

22 A Not that I recall.

23 Q Did he tell you that there were thousands of names of
24 members?
25 A I don't remember him saying that either. I had no



OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5934
Simmen-cross/Trabulus


1 idea of the numerical quantity.

2 Q You didn't think there was like only going to be 10

3 or 20 or 100, right?

4 A I'm certain of that.

5 Q And he didn't ask you to send in a picture or

6 anything like that, so you didn't think there would be any

7 pictures, anything like that?

8 A I didn't expect any illustrations or pictures.

9 Q And he asked you for a certain amount of information

10 about yourself, plus the information you had sent in on

11 the card, right?

12 A Yes, which wasn't anything.

13 Q And when you got the directory, you saw your own name

14 in it, right?

15 A It took me a while to find it.

16 Q But the information in it was accurate?

17 A They had different categories. It was what I had

18 told him. Maybe spun down a little to give them some

19 room.

20 MR. TRABULUS: I have no further questions.

21 MR. JENKS: I have just one or two, Your Honor.

22 (Continued.)

23
24
25

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5935
Simmen-cross/Jenks


1 CROSS-EXAMINATION

2 BY MR. JENKS:

3 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Simmen.

4 A How are you?

5 Q Mr. Simmen, you said you had purchased this really

6 primarily for ego; am I correct?

7 A No. I said I joined the thing. I didn't really

8 think of it -- I don't think of it as a purchase. I

9 thought I was being part of an honorary organization and I

10 don't expect them to give me a free book or anything, so I

11 was paying for the elements that come with it.

12 Q But initially would it be fair to say that it had

13 appealed to your ego and that's what got you interested?

14 A Initially . But secondarily --

15 Q I'll just ask you initially if it appealed to your

16 ego, correct?

17 A Right.

18 Q When you got the plaque, you got it shortly after you

19 joined, correct?

20 A Right.

21 Q And were you working at the time you got the plaque

22 or were you retired?

23 A I was semi-retired.
24 Q So you were doing some work at a firm?
25 A No -- the consulting engineering business is a feast

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5936
Simmen-cross/Jenks


1 and famine business. When you have a client you soak him

2 three or four times what you pay as a regular engineering

3 employee, but there are a lot of times in between when you

4 are on the famine side of that feast and famine, and

5 that's when I was living off of catfish.

6 Q Let me ask you this. When you got the plaque, did

7 you hang the pla que on the wall anywhere?

8 A Yes, I did.

9 Q Did you like it, the plaque? Did it look good?

10 A Not really.

11 Q Let me show you a couple of the plaques, okay.

12 I'll show you Defendant's Exhibit X, Defendant's

13 Exhibit V.

14 A Mine is a green one like that.

15 Q This one?

16 A Yes.

17 Q You got this one? You got one similar to this?

18 A I think so. Except I thought this looks gold and

19 mine is chrome.

20 Q Yours is chrome instead of gold?

21 A I think so.

22 Q But it's similar size and so forth, correct?

23 A Yeah, right.
24 THE COURT: Similar to what?
25 BY MR. JENKS:

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5937
Simmen-cross/Jenks


1 Q Similar in size to Defendant's Exhibit V?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Did you hang it up?

4 A It has that curly metal on it like this one did.

5 Q You hung it up on the wall?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Where did you hang it?

8 A I hung it in an obscure corner where it couldn't be

9 seen by very many people.

10 Q When you first got it, ten days after you became a

11 member, you put it in an obscure spot?

12 A I figured I had $97 in the thing and I might as well

13 put it up there, but I never showed one of my contemporary

14 work people, people in my profession, never brought them

15 in and say, hey, what do you think of this? It was more

16 to impress some of my in-laws who are totally (indicating)

17 know nothing about the engineering business and when they

18 go nosing around they have to come in the office and go

19 around this way in back of a big filing cabinet and they

20 are in a shady corner where it isn't seen anyplace else.

21 They can see it. They say wow, you must have something on

22 the wall.

23 Q So did it do the job with your in-laws?
24 A I haven't seen too many of the younger grandchildren
25 trying to emulate me at all, but whether it was $97 worth

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5938
Simmen-cross/Dunn


1 of impression, that's all I can say.

2 MR. JENKS: Thank you.

3 CROSS-EXAMINATION

4 BY MR. DUNN:

5 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Simmen.

6 A Hi.

7 Q My name is Thomas Dunn.

8 A Is that a joke?

9 Q I have to tell you I've been hearing that same joke

10 since I'm about 14.

11 A Yes.

12 Q And I'm sure it's the same one.

13 A All right.

14 Q Mr. Simmen, I'm sitting in the back and sometimes I

15 have a little difficulty hearing things. I just want to

16 make sure I heard something correctly.

17 Did you say in your consulting work that because

18 it's feast or famine, w hen you get a client, did you say

19 soak the guy for more than its worth?

20 A What I'm saying --

21 Q No, I just want to know if that's what you are

22 saying?

23 A In essence, yes.
24 Q Let me ask you. You got this membership for $97?
25 A Yes.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5939
Simmen-cross/Dunn


1 Q And you also got a directory, right?

2 A Right.

3 Q Would it surprise you to find out that in order to

4 get what you got, you would have to pay close to $300 for

5 it? Would that surprise you now as you sit there?

6 A Yes, it would.

7 Q You like to talk with people, correct?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Is that right?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Isn't it true that the fellow you spoke with, he

12 seemed likable talk to, correct?

13 A Yes, very friendly, very affable fellow.

14 Q You like to talk stor ies. You started in New Jersey,

15 you went to Kentucky, went to Europe and your military

16 experiences.

17 A Yes.

18 Q And do you recall him talking about his military

19 experiences and his trips to different places?

20 A I don't recollect it.

21 Q But you guys were like hitting it off and talking; is

22 that right?

23 A Yeah.
24 Q Would it surprise you to find out on March 8th when
25 you were speaking with this fellow, according to the

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5940
Simmen-cross/Dunn


1 invoice, that he had only been there one week? Would that

2 surprise you?

3 Yes or no, sir?

4 A I would be surprised. He seemed to be very

5 professional in his approach. I mean, working for your

6 firm.

7 Q And now I'm working for him.

8 A Okay.

9 Q Now, would it also surprise you that if someone is

10 only there one week, that they would have been given one

11 of these cards with your name on it that you mailed back,

12 that someone from the same company had already talked to

13 that person, namely, you? Would that surprise you?

14 Do you understand my question?

15 A No, I don't. You lost me.

16 Q There's been testimony about that you don't know

17 about that's called a NG marking or a NG card, meaning

18 that it was no good on the first call and that if a new

19 person is at this company, the fellow was there one week,

20 he would have only gotten those cards.

21 Now, does that refresh your recollection that you

22 received a prior call from somebody else, possibly about

23 joining Who's Who?
24 A I only remembered talking to that fellow.
25 Q You mailed this back in January, correct?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

5941
Simmen-cross/Dunn


1 A Yes, right.

2 Q And it's fair to say although there are times when

3 the post office loses mail, at least that's what people

4 say from time to time, but normally it only takes a couple

5 days to send something from Kentucky up to the New York

6 area. Don't you think that's fair?

7 A Yeah, it takes longer to go the other way for some

8 reason.

9 Q Probably the jet stream or something.

10 But anyway, so it would be fair to say if you

11 mailed it out in January, the odds are that you might have

12 gotten a call before March; is that correct?

13 A It's possible.

14 Q Sir, is it possible that this fellow said to you, and

15 of course taking into consideration that you're good at

16 what you do and that you like to talk, that this fellow

17 told you what was $197 now, $97 later, and you talked him,

18 convinced him into giving you a membership and a directory

19 for only $97. Is that possible?

20 A I don't remember dickering with him at all.

21 Q But somehow you were able to get -- somehow you were

22 able to get from a guy who was there about a week at this

23 company, you were able to get a plaque, a membership that
24 carried benefits and a directory, a thick book for $97; is
25 that right?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5942
Simmen-cross/Dunn


1 $97 is what you paid for everything, right?

2 A Evidently from that invoice. It was 104 with tax.

3 $7 tax on that.

4 Q Okay.

5 Sir, you weren't interested in networking,

6 correct?

7 A Right.

8 Q You basically, when you got this first thing in the

9 mail about Who's Who Worldwide you returned the card,

10 right? You returned the information with your name on it,

11 right, that you were interested in it, correct?

12 A Will you repeat it?

13 Q I'll withdraw it.

14 By the way, have you ever been to a location, to

15 the country New Guinea?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And I would like to show you this item Who's Who

18 Registry card. That's something that you filled out,

19 correct?

20 A This is mine. The red ink on it.

21 Q You checked off "yes, I would like to be included in

22 the 1994 Who's Who Registry of business," right?

23 A Yes.
24 Q And you mailed that back, right?
25 A Yes.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5943
Simmen-cross/Dunn


1 Q Because you wanted to be in this Who's Who, right? I

2 mean, you said that, yes, I want to be in it, right?

3 A Okay.

4 Q And to you it was an ego thing, right?

5 A It was, but I associated it with the Who's Who I

6 always heard about all my life and it's a different

7 company.

8 Q But you sent this back, you wanted to be in it,

9 correct?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And it was an ego thing with you; is that right?

12 A That was the primary stimulus.

13 Q Primary stimulus.

14 And you were happy when you got the plaque?

15 A No, I thought it was a junkie looking plaque.

16 Q Well, you were happy that you were going to be

17 considered for the organization; is that right?

18 THE COURT: You have to answer. Is that right?

19 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry?

20 MR. DUNN: I'll repeat the question.

21 THE COURT: You didn't give him a chance.

22 THE WITNESS: I didn't know where the beginning

23 and end of it was.
24 MR. DUNN: I apologize. I'm like a train and I
25 keep on rolling.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5944
Simmen-cross/Dunn


1 THE WITNESS: Yes.

2 MR. DUNN: I apologize.

3 BY MR. DUNN:

4 Q You wanted to be in a Who's Who, right?

5 A Right. You're right about that.

6 Q And you were asked questions by Ms. Scott about

7 mailing lists, correct?

8 Do you remember she asked you -- Ms. Scott is the

9 prosecutor.

10 A Okay, yes.

11 Q And she asked you some questions about mailing lists?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And it's fair to say you have a negative view of

14 mailing lists?

15 A Yes, I think it is an exploitation of the people.

16 Q I just want to know if you have a negative view?

17 A Yes.

18 MR. DUNN: I would move to strike any other

19 response.

20 THE COURT: Yes, the latter part. After the word

21 "yes," the answer is stricken and the jury will disregard

22 it.

23 BY MR. DUNN:
24 Q You mentioned this other Who's Who, correct?

25 A Yeah.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5945
Simmen-cross/Dunn


1 Q Some other Who's Who that you think has been around

2 forever?

3 A I remember when I was a little kid reading about it,

4 yes.

5 Q Is that some organization that you may have wanted to

6 join?

7 A I didn't know there was more than one. I thought it

8 was all one.

9 Q Let's assume for a moment there was only one and it

10 was the Who's Who that you were thinking about.

11 A Yes.

12 Q Would you have liked to have joined that one?

13 Yes or no?

14 A Yes.

15 Q If you knew that they got, if they used mailing

16 lists, would you want to join that Who's Who you are

17 thinking about, that big one?

18 A No, I thought that they -- just no is the answer.

19 Q You wouldn't even join then?

20 A If I knew it was a mai ling list operation, I would

21 say I've been fooled all my life.

22 Q Have you joined any other organizations, any other

23 groups?
24 A Yeah.
25 Q Could you tell me like what you belong to?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5946
Simmen-cross/Dunn


1 A The Boy Scouts of America.

2 Q What else?

3 A The American Legion.

4 Q Any other clubs?

5 A Oh, yeah. Like some kind of hunting and fishing

6 clubs and stuff like that.

7 Q Join any book clubs?

8 A Yes, I did. You know, Book of the Month years ago.

9 Q Did you ever get any kind of mailings from the Book

10 of the Month Club before you joined, if you remember?

11 A That's a different thing. That's an obvious

12 merchandise thing. I don't view this as a merchandising,

13 this is more honorary.

14 Q If you view it as merchandising and it's from a

15 mailing list, that doesn't bother you; is that right?

16 A No, that's a straightforward way of selling

17 something.

18 Q Does the Book of the Month Club advertise to you that

19 they get their name off a mailing list?

20 A I have no idea.

21 Q They don't tell you that. They don't tell you that

22 they get it off a mailing list; is that correct?

23 A Yes.
24 Q And that is something that didn't bother you to join;
25 is that correct?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5947
Simmen-cross/Dunn


1 A That's correct.

2 MR. DUNN: I have no further questions.

3 THE COURT: Anybody else?

4 Any redirect?

5 MS. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honor. May we have a

6 moment?

7 THE COURT: Yes.

8 MR. DUNN: I'm sorry, Your Honor. May I have one

9 more question?

10 THE COURT: Sure

11 BY MR. DUNN:

12 Q I know you are in a rush, Mr. Simmen, and I

13 apologize.

14 A No, that's all right.

15 Q New Guinea, can you tell me about your experience in

16 New Guinea?

17 A Yes, the United Nations asked me to take up this

18 project in New Guinea, the city of Rabaul which is on the

19 northern tip of the island of New Britain which is part of

20 Papua, New Guinea, they had the beginning of a pottery

21 enterprise there and they wanted to develop it from being

22 a little artsy place to a means of producing dinnerware

23 for the 3,000,000 people that live in Papua, New Guinea.
24 They were eating out of old olive shells and tuna fish
25 cans and things like that.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5948
Simmen-cross/Dunn


1 New Guinea is far from anyplace. Anything you

2 buy there it costs three or four times more if you lived

3 in a different part of the world. So the idea was to make

4 a domestically operated pottery production facility there,

5 set up something. But in order to do that and make it

6 pay, you have to use the local materials and they had two

7 other people from the United Nations that were sent there,

8 one from Czechoslovakia and New England, and England and

9 these guys took from their pockets formulas they took from

10 their previous employees and tried to sell.

11 My idea was to work with the indigenous materials

12 and I restricted, I prospected, went out in a four-wheel

13 drive vehicle anyplace where there was a road cut where I

14 could see something come out. So I would sample these

15 minerals, test fired them and found out if I could

16 synthesize a ceramic material to make a good piece of

17 dinnerware.

18 The volcanic material came out a real dark chalk

1 9 brown and when you put this glaze which is 100 percent

20 volcanic ash I picked up 20 miles from the volcano, after

21 traveling 20 miles from the area and I did something about

22 400 mesh size, perfect, didn't have to grind it, make a

23 beautiful clear glass and it comes out this purplish black
24 lovely stuff.
25 I was able to establish a body composition for

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5949
Simmen-cross/Dunn


1 materials I could get from within 20 miles of that

2 pottery, even though none of them were recognizable by

3 anyone else as conventional ceramic materials. I just got

4 the same physical properties, I kneaded it and recombined

5 it. They were doing well until 1994 until the volcanic

6 eruptions took place, all the buildings came down and now

7 it is a desolate wasteland, so I have nothing to prove. I

8 can't say here' s my contribution to the government.

9 Q The reason I asked that question, Mr. Simmen, I would

10 like you to take a look at that --

11 A He has a note there that says New Guinea.

12 Q How would he have known that?

13 A Because I told him on the phone.

14 Q You told him the whole story, correct, just like you

15 told the jury, correct?

16 A I guess. You kind of reel it off because it is one

17 of the achievements I was proud of.

18 THE COURT: So nature did to Rabaul what the

19 American and Australian Air Force couldn't do.

20 THE WITNESS: Rabaul was totally destroyed in

21 World War II by the Air Force. Used to be on the news.

22 We'd get on the radio in the Central Pacific. One of the

23 headlines was today we bombed Rabaul. There was not one
24 building covered in a 10 mile radius.
25 THE COURT: Didn't cover it with ash as you said

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5950
Simmen-cross/Dunn


1 it had been now.

2 THE WITNESS: There were several other

3 occasions. The volume coming ash where I was digging it

4 to make the glass out of it was a 35 feet thing. This is

5 -- four cubic miles exposed about 1500 years ago out of

6 what is Simpson Harbor out of Rabaul. One little entrance

7 to the outside ocean, 400 feet deep. The water is real

8 clear.

9 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I didn't mean to digress.

10 THE WITNESS: He probably was in the South

11 Pacific in the war too.

12 MR. DUNN: Thanks very much, Mr. Simmen. Thanks

13 for your help.

14 THE COURT: Anything else?

15 MS. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honor.

16 MR. NEVILLE: Your Honor, may I ask a couple

17 quick questions?

18 THE COURT: Yes.

19 (Continued.)

20

21

22

23
24
25

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5951
Simmen-cross/Neville


1 CROSS-EXAMINATION

2 BY MR. NEVILLE:

3 Q How are you?

4 A Okay, my man.

5 Q My name is Jim Neville.

6 A All right, Jim.

7 Q And I'll show you a couple of exhibits. I'll show

8 you Government's Exhibit 226 and Defendant's Exhibit Z.

9 I would like you to take a look at those two and

10 tell me if they are not exactly the same but similar?

11 A (Perusing.) This is Who's Who in the East. This is

12 not the same group.

13 Well, this one gives you a source, this Who's Who

14 in America, it says. I think what is really significant

15 here, that names of --

16 THE COURT: Mr. Simmen, everything you say is

17 taken down and we have to hear it.

18 THE WITNESS: Excuse me.

19 THE COURT: In other words, there is no private

2 0 conversations. Keep your voice up, please.

21 THE WITNESS: I didn't realize that. People

22 usually say don't talk to loud.

23 THE COURT: You've been doing fine as far as the
24 volume is concerned, but you see people have a tendency to
25 talk privately when they think it isn't --

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5952
Simmen-cross/Neville


1 THE WITNESS: Well, he's right up here, you know.

2 THE COURT: It's a normal inclination.

3 THE WITNESS: Go ahead.

4 MR. NEVILLE: I like your tie, first of all.

5 THE WITNESS: It's Rush Limbaugh.

6 MR. NEVILLE: A friend of yours?

7 THE WITNESS: Well, I listen to him on the radio

8 while I'm exercising on my Nordic Trak.

9 MR. NEVILLE: That's good.

10 Q Well, let me ask you. The first sentence on both of

11 these letters, does it say that the person that the letter

12 is d irected to had been nominated? The first sentence.

13 A Yeah, that says nominated.

14 Q And --

15 A Okay. I wasn't sure of that wording when it was

16 nominated or whether it was just suggested or something.

17 I had no copies of either of these letters.

18 Q Would it surprise you if I told you this letter here

19 was from that Who's Who --

20 A The original Who's Who.

21 Q The original Who's Who that you had read about as a

22 kid?

23 A I thought I saw something that said Who's Who in the
24 east, but, no, it wouldn't.
25 Q No. And that these guys here, the "real" in

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5953
Simmen-cross/Neville


1 quotations Who's Who uses mailing lists to garner names?

2 A They give a whole group of sources here. Many

3 sources, magazines, newspapers, professional and scholarly

4 journals and ma ny other publications, professional

5 organizations, that would be a mailing list.

6 Q But they don't list a mailing list?

7 A As well as nominated by our advisory and nominating

8 boards and who are established biographers.

9 Q They don't mention mailing list, per se?

10 A Don't use that word. But there is a mailing list in

11 there, several, maybe in that category.

12 Q And this is the real Who's Who, this is the famous

13 one and they use mailing lists, what do you think of that?

14 A They use various specialized mailing lists, people

15 who are of professional organization memberships, like if

16 they were taking the roster of the American Ceramic

17 Society, that would be a special mailing list.

18 Q How do you know what mailing list you came from?

19 A I suspect it was the Wall Street Journal because

20 there's a lot of them that come out of that. If you

21 subscribe to the Wall Street Journal you will get a lot of

22 junk mail.

23 Q How do you know that it wasn't Rush Limbaugh who
24 nominated you for this?
25 A Because at that time he didn't know where I lived.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5954
Simmen-redirect/Scott


1 It was later then. It was back in 1995 that they sent me

2 that tie.

3 Q Did he buy you that tie?

4 A I bought it for $42. It was a Father's Day gift.

5 They said what would you like for Father's Day and I said

6 I would like one of those ties.

7 MR. NEVILLE: I'll let you meet your daughter and

8 I wish you further luck.

9 No further questions.

10 REDIRECT EXAMINATION

11 BY MS. SCOTT:

12 Q Mr. Simmen, I want you to take another quick look at

13 Government's Exhibit 43-D.

14 This is the card you filled out and sent to Who's

15 Who Worldwide?

16 A Yes.

17 Q Do you remember being asked whether you knew that

18 somebody else might have tried to call you beforehand

19 before you spoke to this gentleman that sold you this

20 membership? Do you remember being asked questions about

21 that on cross-examination?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And Mr. Dunn mentioned to you the letters NG; is that
24 correct?
25 A That usually means NG, yes.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5955
Simmen-redirect/Scott


1 Q If you take a look at this card, other than your

2 handwriting on there, do you see somebody else's

3 handwriting?

4 A Yes, I see possibly two different handwritings on

5 that.

6 Q And the other handwritings are in other colors

7 besides red?

8 A One is a course blue ink and the other is black ink

9 on a finer pen.

10 Q Looki ng at the blue ink on the left-hand side, can

11 you tell us what that says?

12 A 421 McNeily Road, that's where the change of address

13 -- you see this box 243 Rural Route 5 has been crossed

14 off. The whole county 20 on the 911, they put everybody

15 as having a Benton address which is the county seat. But

16 I'm 16 and a half miles out of Benton.

17 THE COURT: How do you spell that?

18 THE WITNESS: B-E-N-T-O-N, like Thomas Hart

19 Benton.

20 THE COURT: The senator, right?

21 THE WITNESS: Yeah.

22 BY MS. SCOTT:

23 Q So this 421 McNeily was your new address, is that
24 correct, at this time?
25 A Yes.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5956
Simmen-redirect/Scott


1 Q Now, 421 McNeily, do you see an NG anywhere?

2 A No.

3 Q On the right-hand side, do you see any lettering

4 there?

5 A Yes.

6 Q What does that say?

7 A Troubleshooting and problem solving.

8 Q Do you see an NG next to that little message?

9 A No.

10 Q Just above troubleshooting and trouble solving?

11 A I see Papua, New Guinea.

12 Q And do you see an NG written next to Papua, New

13 Guinea?

14 A No.

15 Q Just at the top in black ink, can you tell us what

16 that says?

17 A By two year -- I don't know, annual. No, that's a

18 two-year membership (perusing.)

19 What is this 137 with a question mark?

20 Q Well, do you see the letters NG anywhere in that

21 message?

22 A Two-year annual member, at 137 with a double question

23 mark. It looks like they figured I wonder if this guy
24 would go for the $97 or $137, it's the same thing. You
25 have to be sensitive. They get a 2 percent commission.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPOR TER
5957
Simmen-redirect/Scott


1 Q Do you see an NG written near that?

2 A No.

3 Q And the date that appears before that message, is

4 that the date that appears on your invoice? It's

5 Government's Exhibit 43-B (indicating)?

6 A Yes, it's the same one.

7 Q The same date on the invoice as is written on the

8 note on the lead card, 43-D; is that correct?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Now, turning the card over, do you see the letters NG

11 anywhere on the front of that card?

12 A No, ma'am.

13 MS. SCOTT: Your Honor, I would, once again, like

14 to publish these documents.

15 THE COURT: Very well.

16 BY MS. SCOTT:

17 Q Now, do you remember Mr. Dunn asking you about the

18 amount of money that you paid to Who's Who Worldwide?

19 A He was one of the attorneys that was up here? Yes, I

20 thought I did. 97, plus $7 in tax.

21 Q Did you pay any additional money to the company for

22 anything?

23 A I don't know. It was done on credit cards, if it
24 was, and I threw all of that credit card stuff out from
25 '93, '94. I thought it must have been in my check stubs

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5958
Simmen-redirect/Scott


1 and I went over all of them and there was nothing there.

2 Q What about in connection with the directory?

3 A Well, that invoice mentions the directory so it must

4 have been in that package. I'm rather vague on this thing

5 as to actual transactions. But if I got the 97, I got the

6 bottom price. I'm pleased with that, thank you, Counsel.

7 I'm glad I didn't pay 300 for that because I would have

8 gotten ripped off worse.

9 Q Do you remember Mr. Dunn asking you about the Book of

10 the Month Club?

11 A Yes.

12 Q And I wan t to just ask you, when you joined the Book

13 of the Month Club, were you told that you had to qualify

14 to become a member of it?

15 A Qualified by having the money to pay for the book.

16 Q Were you told that it would be an honor for you to be

17 in the Book of the Month Club?

18 A No.

19 MR. DUNN: Objection.

20 THE COURT: Overruled.

21 BY MS. SCOTT:

22 Q I'm sorry, your answer to that? Were you told it

23 would be an honor for you to be in the Book of the Month
24 Club?
25 A No.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5959
Simmen-redirect/Scott


1 Q Were you told that it would be an honor for you to

2 join the Book of the Month Club?

3 A No.

4 Q Now, at the time that you made your purchase from

5 Who's Who Worldwide, if your name had been taken from a

6 mailing list is that something that you wo uld have wanted

7 to know?

8 MR. SCHOER: Objection.

9 MR. DUNN: Objection.

10 THE COURT: Sustained.

11 Anything further?

12 MS. SCOTT: I have nothing further.

13 MR. TRABULUS: Nothing further.

14 THE COURT: Please call your next witness or

15 resume your next witness.

16 (Mr. Saffer resumes the stand.)

17 THE COURT: You are still under oath, Mr. Saffer.

18 THE WITNESS: I understand, Judge.

19 (Continued.)

20

21

22

23
24
25

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5960
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 A L A N S A F F E R , having been previously sworn by

2 the Clerk of the Court, was examined and testified as

3 follows:

4 MR. NELSON: May I continue, Judge?

5 THE COURT: Yes

6 CROSS-EXAMINATION

7 BY MR. NELSON:

8 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Saffer.

9 A Hello.

10 Q The last thing we were discussing was you became

11 aware of the Reed litigation taking place shortly after

12 Mr. Martin left the company. Do you recall that?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And I just want to ask you something else before you

15 get on to that subject.

16 You had testified yesterday about the lead cards

17 that you were given and you used those for purposes of

18 calling up prospective customers; is that correct?

19 A That's correct.

20 Q Some of those lead cards would have an NG put on

21 them; is that right?

22 A Before I got them?

23 Q Were there cards that you saw on occasion --
24 withdrawn.
25 Am I correct that when you got those cards

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5961
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 sometimes you would call people up and they might not be

2 home, right?

3 A That's correct.

4 Q And you might call them a number of times and they

5 are not home; is that correct?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q Would you sometimes write on that card NG?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And were there sometimes occasions during the five

10 years you were working there that even though you didn't

11 reach somebody, you forgot to write NG on the card?

12 A Yes.

13 Q So there were occasions that there were cards that

14 were -- withdrawn.

15 Am I correct that these cards which you would

16 call and the person wouldn't be home or maybe even

17 declined membership where you forgot to put NG on it,

18 would then be put in the NG bin; is that correct?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And they would be recirculated to the newer employees

21 for the purpose of the newer employees being trained on

22 those NG cards; is that right?

23 A Yes.
24 Q So it is quite possible there were occasions where a
25 few employee might well have received a lead card that

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5962
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 came out of the NG file but it doesn't say on the card NG

2 because either you or one of the other salespeople just

3 neglected to write NG on it but put it in the NG file; is

4 that correct?

5 A That's correct.

6 Q I would like to return at this point to the

7 discussion with respect to the Reed litigation.

8 Am I correct you were called upon to testify in

9 the Reed litigation?

10 A Yes.

11 Q In fact, you were called to testify in the Reed

12 litigation on two separate occasions, is that right?

13 A Yes. One at a deposition.

14 Q Right.

15 You testified in a deposition in 1993 and then at

16 the actual trial in 1994; is that right?

17 A That's correct.

18 Q And do you recall during the trial in 1994 that you

19 were questioned by the attorney for Reed Elsevier a fellow

20 by the name of Thomas Bailey?

21 A I was questioned by an attorney. I'm not positive of

22 his name.

23 Q I would like to show you at this time a transcript or
24 a partial transcript of the trial testimony from February
25 10, 1994. This is marked as 3500-25-F. I would ask for

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5963
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 you to look on the first page.

2 Am I correct that there was an attorney by the

3 name of Thomas Bailey who was the attorney for the

4 plaintiffs in the lawsuit?

5 A That's correct.

6 Q And the plaintiffs were Reed Elsevier; is that

7 correct?

8 A That's correct.

9 Q Does that refresh your recollection?

10 A Yes, it does.

11 Q That the attorney was Thomas Bailey?

12 A Yes, it was.

13 Q Now, I believe you testified that you had been

14 advised by Mr. Gordon that he believed that Reed Elsevier

15 was attempting to -- Reed Elsevier believed -- withdrawn.

16 Am I correct that you were advised by Bruce

17 Gordon that he believed that Reed felt that Who's Who

18 Worldwide was competition for Reed Elsevier for their

19 Marquis Who's Who?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And when you were questioned by Mr. Bailey, the

22 attorney for Reed Elsevier, would I be correct in stating

23 that that assumption made by Mr. Gordon appeared to be
24 borne out by the questions that Mr. Bailey was asking you,
25 that he believed on behalf of his client Reed Elsevier

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5964
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 that there was competition taking place here?

2 MR. WHITE: Objection.

3 THE COURT: Sustained.

4 BY MR. NELSON:

5 Q Did it appear to you that the questioning that was

6 taking place bore upon competition between Reed and Who's

7 Who Worldwide?

8 MR. WHITE: Objection.

9 THE COURT: Sustained.

10 Q I'm correct that Mr. Gordon told you that he believed

11 that Reed had brought this lawsuit because of the

12 competition between Who's Who Worldwide and Reed; is that

13 correct?

14 A You are correct.

15 Q Now, am I correct that Mr. Gordon also indicated to

16 you that it was his belief that Reed was attempting to

17 drive Who's Who Worldwide out of business by this

18 litigation; is that correct?

19 A That's correct.

20 Q Now, do you recall being asked during the course of

21 your testimony during the trial itself about the

22 interviews that you conducted of potential customers?

23 A Yes.
24 Q And do you recall being asked during the trial by
25 Mr. Bailey that -- withdrawn.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5965
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 Do you recall telling Mr. Bailey during the

2 course of your testimony that it appeared that if a person

3 was not going to qualify during the course of the

4 interview, you would not go on with the presentation?

5 A That's correct.

6 Q And that was a true statement; is that right?

7 A That's correct.

8 Q Am I correct that Bruce Gordon had told the sales

9 staff that there were certain categories of people that

10 simply didn't qualify for membership in Who's Who

11 Worldwide?

12 A That's correct.

13 Q I believe yesterday you indicate that teachers and

14 people with the name "assistant" in their title were

15 people that he felt wouldn't qualify fo r Who's Who; is

16 that correct?

17 A That's correct.

18 Q Would I be correct in stating that you were

19 instructed by Mr. Gordon that if you were to receive a

20 lead card with that type of person such as a teacher on it

21 that you should return that lead card to the group leader

22 who provided you with that card and you would be redeemed

23 or reimbursed with a new card, somebody who at least on
24 the face of the card would be qualified for inclusion to
25 Who's Who Worldwide?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5966
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 A That's correct.

2 Q To digress for a moment. I asked you earlier about

3 your dealings with Mr. Martin.

4 Am I correct Mr. Martin himself never actually

5 gave him lead cards?

6 A He did occasionally, just occasionally.

7 Q That wasn't one of his primary responsibilities . It

8 was only on occasion when somebody else wasn't around?

9 A That's correct.

10 Q Am I correct that in getting back to these interviews

11 that you conducted, when you received a lead card,

12 sometimes when you received a lead card there might be

13 something about somebody's employment that might be that

14 he qualified but once you spoke to somebody on the

15 telephone it became obvious from the discussion, though,

16 the title that that person wrote on the lead card was one

17 that, at least on appearances sake, would qualify. During

18 the interview it became clear that somebody didn't

19 qualify.

20 A That would happen occasionally.

21 Q And those were the kinds of people where you would

22 terminate the interview and terminate the script; is that

23 correct?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Am I also correct during the course of the trial



OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5967
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 testimony, Mr. Bailey asked you about the company's policy

2 with respect to the split billing?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And you explained to him what the split billing was

5 during the trial testimony; is that right?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And that's just like you explained it to us here

8 yesterday what the split billing procedure was, correct?

9 A Correct.

10 Q Am I correct that during the five years that you

11 worked at Who's Who Worldwide, you always explained to

12 customers every day when you spoke to them what the split

13 billing was and how that worked?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Am I correct that every script you were ever provided

16 during the five years that you worked at Who's Who

17 Worldwide, specifically provided for the person who was

18 giving the presentation to advise t he customer about the

19 split billing?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Am I correct that the group leaders in the company,

22 as well as Mr. Gordon, instructed you other than that one

23 occasion back in 1990 that you spoke about yesterday, that
24 you must follow the script and you must tell the customer
25 about the B balance and the split billing?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5968
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 A Yes.

2 Q And as far as you know, you always told the customer

3 about the B balance, right?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And you were never instructed at any point in time by

6 Mr. Martin or any other group leader not to advise the

7 customer about the B balance; is that right?

8 A That was --

9 Q Let me back it up and rephrase it.

10 A I want to be clear on this.

11 Q Am I correct that Frank Martin at no time ever

1 2 instructed you not to tell a customer about the B balance?

13 A That's correct.

14 Q In fact, if anything, he told you exactly the

15 opposite, make sure you tell them about the B balance; is

16 that correct?

17 A That's correct.

18 Q Now, am I correct, during your trial testimony

19 Mr. Bailey, the attorney, also asked you if you had ever

20 seen the solicitation letters that were actually sent from

21 Who's Who Worldwide to prospective customers which

22 eventually lead to the lead cards coming in; is that

23 right?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Am I correct that you told him you had absolutely

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5969
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 nothing to do with these letters; is that right?

2 A That's correct.

3 Q You never saw them; is that right?

4 A That's correct.

5 Q And you certainly didn't writ e them; is that right?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q And during the five years that you worked with the

8 company, there was no point in time that you actually saw

9 the solicitation letters that had been sent out to the

10 customers; is that correct?

11 A That's correct.

12 Q Am I correct that you also had absolutely nothing to

13 do with the acquisition of what you were told with mailing

14 lists which were used to send out the solicitation

15 letters; is that correct?

16 A That's correct.

17 Q So you had no knowledge of what procedure was

18 followed by Who's Who Worldwide for purposes for the

19 acquisition of those mailing lists; is that right?

20 A That's correct.

21 Q And you certainly had no knowledge as to whether or

22 not those mailing lists consisted of segmented portions of

23 specialized mailing lists that were sent to targeted
24 au diences, did you?
25 A Could you repeat that question, sir, please?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5970
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 Q Sure.

2 You certainly had no knowledge of the fact that

3 the mailing lists which were actually acquired by Who's

4 Who Worldwide weren't an entire list but they were

5 portions of a list that might have been sold by a company

6 and that those portions were targeted to a particular

7 audience, such as CFOs, managers, presidents, and

8 vice-presidents in a particular field or industry. You

9 weren't aware of that; is that correct?

10 A That's hard to answer yes or no without an

11 explanation.

12 Q Let me follow up.

13 Would I be correct that you could have upon some

14 assumption that there was some form of particularization

15 or specialization taking place based upon this pattern you

16 saw that was coming back to you of say, for example, for

17 two or three weeks, you were only getting CFOs in the

18 ceramic industry, for example?

19 A Yes.

20 Q So you were able to generate from that the assumption

21 that there might well have been a mailing list used but

22 that mailing list was for a particular pattern or

23 industry; is that right?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q And none the less, you had no knowledge as to whether

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5971
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 or not, with respect to the mailing list from that

2 particular industry, Who's Who Worldwide had specifically

3 particularized that list to only ask for the higher

4 echelon of individuals who were in that particular

5 industry. You didn't have knowledge of that; is that

6 correct?

7 A You will have to repeat that again. I' m sorry.

8 Q Sure, I'll try again.

9 Since you had nothing to do with the acquisition

10 of the lists themselves, you were able to form some

11 assumption that the lists or some of the lists that were

12 used were directed to a specific industry or profession

13 because you were receiving cards back during, let's say, a

14 two or three-week period of time that all came from that

15 industry?

16 A That's correct.

17 Q But you weren't able to make a determination as to

18 the fact that the persons or person who was making the

19 designation as to that industry was also asking that only

20 the higher echelon of people in that industry included on

21 the list was being requested or targeted for purposes of

22 the solicitation letter; is that right?

23 A That's correct.
24 Q Am I correct you also had nothing to do with the
25 drafting of the actual sales presentations, the various

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5972
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 presentations that were shown to you yesterday by the

2 government?

3 A That's correct.

4 Q Now, do you recall being asked during your trial

5 testimony by Mr. Bailey during this lawsuit about how many

6 of the cards that you received, what he called invitation

7 cards, and I'll call them the lead cards because that's

8 what we were using during the course of the trial and how

9 many nomination cards?

10 A He did ask me.

11 Q He seemed to be interested in that subject; is that

12 right?

13 A That's correct.

14 Q Would you like some water, sir? Are you okay?

15 A That's okay.

16 Q And am I correct that you testified it was on

17 February 10, 1994? And I'll refresh your recollection by

18 showing you the transcript (h anding.)

19 A (Indicating.)

20 Q That's correct.

21 Now, do you recall advising or testifying during

22 the course of the trial that as of February of 1994, you

23 were receiving two to three nomination ballots per week?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q Now, am I correct that the manner in which you were

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5973
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 getting these nomination ballots, you were being given

2 them by Mr. Gordon?

3 A That's correct.

4 Q And he was giving those nomination ballots to lots of

5 other -- withdrawn.

6 He was giving those nomination ballots to other

7 people who likewise were working for Who's Who Worldwide;

8 is that correct?

9 A That's correct.

10 Q And I believe you testified that the better the

11 salesperson was, the more nomination ballots that person

12 wo uld be receiving; is that right?

13 A That's correct.

14 Q Now, am I correct that the procedure which was set up

15 for acquiring these nomination ballots didn't come into

16 place until sometime around the summer of 1993?

17 A You are correct.

18 Q And so that at the time you testified during the Reed

19 trial it would be fair to state that there was only about

20 a five or six-month period of time that elapsed from the

21 time the company had made a decision, gee, we're going to

22 send out nomination ballots to existing members for them

23 to bring in new members; is that right?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q And the manner in which that was done was by a number

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5974
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 of different mailings that were sent to the existing

2 members, correct?

3 A Yes.

4 Q One of the ways was when a new member, when somebody

5 became a new member, that person was sent, included in the

6 packet or the new membership packet, a nomination card

7 giving that person the opportunity to nominate two or

8 three people; is that right?

9 A That's correct.

10 Q And another manner in which that was done was by

11 including in the Tribute magazine a page which actually

12 had a pullout which was for each of the persons who

13 received Tribute magazine, since they were members, the

14 opportunity to nominate more people to become members of

15 Who's Who Worldwide; is that right?

16 A I don't remember the page.

17 Q Well, it's half a page actually.

18 A I believe so. Yes, that would be right. That would

19 be right.

20 Q Okay.

21 Would I be fair in stating in the five-month

22 period of time between the initial implementation of this

23 policy and your testimony during the course of the Reed
24 trial, the company was first really starting to get its
25 first feedback on these nomination cards that were sent

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5975
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 out. Sort of like the first wave of doing this; is that

2 correct?

3 A That's correct.

4 Q And would it be fair to say that from February of

5 1994 up to March of 1995, when the search warrant was

6 executed, there were more and more nomination ballots that

7 were coming into the company because there were more and

8 more mailings going out to the existing members asking for

9 them to nominate other people to come in; is that right?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And as a result both you and the other salespeople

12 were acquiring a greater and greater percentage of

13 nomination cards as opposed to lead ca rds for purposes of

14 making calls; is that right?

15 A Can you repeat that again?

16 Q Sure.

17 Between 19 -- between February of 1994 and March

18 of 1995 when the search warrant was executed, the

19 percentage of nomination cards as opposed to lead cards

20 was starting to swing more gradually, more and more

21 towards nomination cards because there was just more and

22 more of them coming in; is that right?

23 A I can't answer that yes or no.
24 Q Okay.
25 Were you getting more than two or three per week

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5976
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 by say February of 1995?

2 A No.

3 Q Okay.

4 You were receiving the same number?

5 A Approximately the same number.

6 Q And you don't know whether or not other people were

7 receiving a greater number?

8 A No, I couldn' t comment on that. I don't know.

9 THE COURT: Is this a good time to take a break?

10 MR. NELSON: Yes, Judge, that's fine.

11 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we'll take a

12 ten-minute recess.

13 Please don't discuss the case. Keep an open

14 mind.

15 Please recess yourselves.

16 (Jury exits.)

17 (Recess taken.)

18 (Jury enters.)

19 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the

20 jury.

21 You may proceed.

22 MR. NELSON: Thank you, Your Honor.

23 BY MR. NELSON:
24 Q Mr. Saffer, am I correct that Mr. Bailey also asked
25 you during the course of your trial testimony about the

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5977
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 CD ROM at Who's Who Worldwide had begun to market to its

2 members?

3 A I believe he did, yes.

4 Q And do you recall him specifically asking abou t

5 that? If you don't -- if you could turn to page 100 --

6 A Refresh my memory.

7 Q I direct your attention to page 100 of the trial

8 transcript, lines 16 through 25. Just read it to

9 yourself.

10 A (Perusing.) Yes.

11 Q Does that refresh your recollection?

12 A Yes, it does. Thank you.

13 Q That Mr. Bailey had indeed asked you about this

14 CD ROM that was just recently marketed by Who's Who

15 Worldwide for its membership?

16 A That's correct.

17 Q And it certainly appeared from the questions that

18 were being asked by Mr. Bailey that at least during the

19 course of this trial on behalf of his client he was quite

20 interested in both the nomination ballots and the CD ROM;

21 is that correct?

22 A That's correct.

23 Q And as a result of those proceedings -- withdrawn.
24 Are you aware, sir, that since Who's Who
25 W orldwide effectively was shut down in March of 1995, that

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5978
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 Reed has implemented and marketed an organization where

2 the names of applicants are predominantly acquired from

3 mailing lists?

4 MR. WHITE: Objection.

5 THE COURT: Sustained.

6 BY MR. NELSON:

7 Q Are you aware of the fact, sir, that Reed states in

8 its solicitation letters that it nominates people?

9 A No, I'm not.

10 Q Are you aware of the fact that Reed now encourages

11 existing members in one of their Who's Who directories, to

12 nominate others for membership?

13 MR. WHITE: Objection.

14 THE COURT: Sustained.

15 BY MR. NELSON:

16 Q Are you aware, sir, that Reed now markets a CD ROM

17 which is patterned after the CD ROM that Who's Who

18 Worldwide had offered as a membership option to its

19 members?

20 MR. WHITE: Objection.

21 THE COURT: Sustained. Desist.

22 MR. NELSON: Yes, Your Honor.

23 BY MR. NELSON:
24 Q Now, when you testified in the Reed litigation at the
25 deposition in March of 1993, Frank Martin had not yet

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5979
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 returned to Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct?

2 A That's correct.

3 Q And when you testified in the trial in February of

4 1994, he still hadn't yet returned because he still had

5 not been back in November of 1994; is that correct?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q Am I correct that by the time Mr. Martin returned to

8 Who's Who Worldwide in late November of 1994, the company

9 had already published, I believe, three or possibly four

10 editions of Tribute magazine?

11 A That's correct.

12 Q A nd that magazine contained the nomination ballots

13 inside for members?

14 A Yes.

15 Q And it put over the new membership benefits which had

16 come into effect such as the credit card and the Airborne

17 Express discounts and the telephone, both international

18 and domestic discounts and the Med Jet emergency

19 assistance to members; is that correct?

20 A Yes.

21 Q So if Mr. Martin had reviewed any of the Who's Who

22 Worldwide Tribute magazine publications prior to his

23 return to the company, he would have been made aware of
24 the fact that the member benefit package had increased
25 dramatically from the time he had left the company to the

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5980
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 time he returned, correct?

2 A That's correct.

3 Q And he also would have been aware of the fact that

4 there now existed a procedure which the company was

5 encouraging for existing members to nominate new members

6 for inclusion; is that correct?

7 A That's correct.

8 Q By the time he actually returned to the company in

9 November of 1994, although you weren't permitted access to

10 the area, there was indeed a public affairs office at

11 Who's Who Worldwide; is that right?

12 A That's correct.

13 Q And in fact, it was rather fully staffed by Liz

14 Sautter and the people who worked in there, right --

15 withdrawn. Debra Benjamin and the people who worked

16 there?

17 A In the public affairs office?

18 Q Yes, I misspoke.

19 A Yes.

20 Q And there was also an administration department where

21 you also weren't permitted to go but that was fully

22 staffed as well; is that right?

23 A When you say "fully staffed" --
24 Q There was quit e a number of people working there; is
25 that right?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5981
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 A Like three to four, yes.

2 Q So that when Mr. Martin returned to the company, he

3 would have been aware there was a public affairs office

4 run by Debra Benjamin with a number of other people there

5 and there was an administration office with three or four

6 people working there doing the administrative functions in

7 the business; is that correct?

8 A That's correct.

9 Q Now, would I be correct in summarizing that between

10 November of 1992 when Frank left the company, in November

11 of 1994 when he returned to the company, the benefits that

12 were being provided for people who joined Who's Who

13 Worldwide had indeed increased rather dramatically?

14 A Increased, yes.

15 Q And would I also be correc t in stating that there

16 certainly was a difference as it related to the ability

17 for the company to acquire a greater number of nominations

18 since a procedure now existed for both the acquisition and

19 the distribution to the various people in the sales force

20 of those nomination cards?

21 A That's correct.

22 Q Now, when Mr. Martin returned to the company in 1994,

23 you were working in this black room; is that right?
24 A I'm pretty sure I was. I'm not positive.
25 Q And when he came back to the company, his job

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5982
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 primarily once again was to train and supervise the new

2 sales staff; is that right?

3 A That's correct.

4 Q So I would be correct in stating during that period

5 of time, and it was a somewhat brief period from November

6 of '94 to March of '95, you're dealings with Frank were

7 other than on a social basis, hello and good-bye?

8 A Yes.

9 Q He certainly wasn't supervising you; is that correct?

10 A Not directly, no.

11 Q He had no supervisory functions over people working

12 in the black room?

13 A That's correct.

14 Q In fact, the people in the black room because they

15 were the more senior salespeople, they weren't really

16 being supervised by the group leaders, per se, because the

17 group leaders were supervising the new sales staff; would

18 that be correct?

19 A Correct.

20 Q Would it be fair in stating that Mr. Martin was a

21 hard-working man?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And seemed to believe in the company?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Seemed to believe in the product that Who's Who

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5983
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 Worldwide had to offer?

2 A Yes.

3 MR. NELSON: Thank you. I have no further

4 questions, Your Honor.

5 THE COURT: Anyone else?

6 MR. DUNN: Your Honor, I just have a brief motion

7 in limine. May I approach on it?

8 THE COURT: Yes, come up.

9 (Side bar.)

10 MR. DUNN: Your Honor, I wanted to ask a couple

11 questions about the Reed Elsevier litigation and I don't

12 want to open up any doors, that's why I came up. I want

13 to ask this gentleman, Mr. Saffer, the fact that he

14 learned that in March of 1994 or late February of 1994

15 that civil case had concluded.

16 And my next question is, after that were changes

17 made at Who's Who Worldwide? I want to ask those

18 questions but I just don't want to open up any doors.

19 THE COURT: That the case was concluded.

20 MR. DUNN: Yes.

21 THE COURT: How did he know that?

22 MR. DUNN: Possibly from something at work.

23 MR. TRABULUS: There is evidence in the record,
24 Your Honor, that the decision of Magistrate Judge Jordan
25 came down and I think what Mr. Dunn is averting to is by

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5984
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 getting into the fact there were changes made thereafter,

2 he doesn't want to open the door to the introduction of

3 evidence as to the substance of Magistrate Judge Jordan's

4 decision particularly those portions we discussed

5 previously.

6 THE COURT: What changes are you referring to?

7 MR. DUNN: Just some certain changes in the

8 pitch, things like that in the way they presented the

9 product.

10 THE COURT: You want to get into that there were

11 changes?

12 MR. DUNN: Yes, and I don't want to open up the

13 door.

14 THE COURT: Supp ose he says I don't know.

15 MR. DUNN: Then I wouldn't go into it.

16 THE COURT: How would he know that this lawsuit

17 was concluded?

18 MR. DUNN: I think he knows it was concluded

19 because there might have been a meeting and changes were

20 resulting in the pitch.

21 THE COURT: I don't think you are opening up the

22 door.

23 MR. WHITE: By linking the two, as a result of
24 the lawsuit Who's Who changed its pitch. Take some sort
25 of positive indication, we know it is exactly the

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5985
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 opposite.

2 THE COURT: You can take that view or you can

3 take the view they made some changes because what they

4 were doing wasn't right.

5 MR. WHITE: Okay, but then I should --

6 THE COURT: You can take either view. If they

7 want to go ahead and do that, le t them do that. I mean,

8 you can object but I'll let them.

9 MR. WHITE: I don't want to object --

10 THE COURT: Well, I don't want to say anything.

11 They can do what they want to do.

12 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, if I were to object I

13 take it it would be your ruling as well.

14 THE COURT: What is that?

15 MR. TRABULUS: Would you overrule it as well?

16 THE COURT: If you were to object I would

17 overrule it because it may be relevant to show the conduct

18 of the defendants.

19 MR. TRABULUS: Fair enough. On that basis I will

20 not object.

21 THE COURT: Okay.

22 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Your Honor, Mr. Reffsin was

23 going to leave at this point.
24 THE COURT: Yes. Is Mr. Reffsin here?
25 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Yes.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5986
Saffer-cross/Nelson


1 THE COURT: Did I give him a allocation

2 yesterday?

3 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Yes.

4 THE COURT: Did I give him a thorough one?

5 MR. WALLENSTEIN: You always are thorough.

6 MR. WHITE: Could I just add at maybe the end of

7 the day in light of what Mr. Dunn's questioning is, I will

8 not object now obviously, in light of what it is, if the

9 government thinks it is appropriate to raise the question

10 then?

11 MR. DUNN: I'll cut it short. I'm taking the

12 wisdom of my co-counsel and I will not even go into that

13 area.

14 MR. WALLENSTEIN: I'll tell Mr. Reffsin he can

15 go.

16 (End side bar.)

17 THE COURT: You may proceed Mr. Dunn.

18 MR. DUNN: Thank you, Your Honor.

19 CROSS-EXAMINATION

20 BY MR. DUNN:

21 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Saffer. My name is Thomas Dunn.

22 I represent Steve Rubin.

23 Do you know Steve Rubin?
24 A Yes, I do.

25 Q And you started working at Who's Who Worldwide in

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5987
Saffer-cross/Dunn


1 1990; is that correct?

2 A July, yes.

3 Q And Mr. Rubin began working at Who's Who Worldwide in

4 March of 1994; is that correct?

5 A March of 1994. To the best of my recollection, yes.

6 Q Now, when you were at West, you knew that the postal

7 inspectors were involved in that case when the place was

8 -- when they came in on a particular day after you had

9 been there about five months, correct?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And you said that you had a conversation with

12 somebody, was it Mr. Biegelman, maybe you should not come

13 back to work there?

14 A It wasn't Mr. Biegelman, it was another inspector.

15 Q But it was someone with the postal service?

16 A Yes, positively.

17 Q On December 2, 1994 -- withdr awn.

18 Yesterday you listened to a tape concerning a

19 postal supervisor of some sort, a person saying he was a

20 postal supervisor.

21 A Yes.

22 Q Calling and speak to you at Who's Who Worldwide; is

23 that correct?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And when you spoke to that person, you basically read

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5988
Saffer-cross/Dunn


1 from the pitch; is that correct?

2 Yes or no, did you read from the pitch?

3 A I just want to think about that.

4 Yes. Yes.

5 Q Sir, in fact, would it be fair to say that you stayed

6 with the pitch when you had people calling you up?

7 A Yes.

8 Q And in fact, when this person saying that he was a

9 postal supervisor was calling you up, did that set off any

10 bells in your head about the fact, well, you know --

11 withdrawn. You knew at that point tha t the postal

12 inspectors had closed West down; is that correct?

13 A That's correct.

14 Q And you get a call from a postal person and you read

15 from the pitch; is that right?

16 A That's correct.

17 Q And on December 2nd of 1994 you told this postal

18 person that you spoke to him about Hilton Head, correct?

19 A Excuse me?

20 Q You spoke to him about the Hilton Head conference; is

21 that correct?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And in fact, for a period of time you believed that
24 the Hilton Head conference had taken place, correct?
25 A For a period of time, correct.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5989
Saffer-cross/Dunn


1 Q And would it be fair to say that sometime in late

2 December of 1994 or possibly even in January of 1995 that

3 you learned that the Hilton Head conference had not taken

4 place; is that correct?

5 A That's correct.

6 Q And then after that, when you learned that, you

7 didn't use that in the pitch, correct? You didn't speak

8 about Hilton Head as far as it taking place, did you?

9 Do you understand my question?

10 A Yes.

11 Q When you didn't know it --

12 A There might have been a time that I did mention it,

13 that it did take place, sponsored a convention.

14 Q Now, you know Sue Mantell; is that correct?

15 A Yes, I know.

16 Q You are close friends; is that correct?

17 A I wouldn't say close. Friendly.

18 Q You worked near her?

19 A Yes.

20 Q At Who's Who Worldwide?

21 A That's correct.

22 Q There were some people, although you worked with them

23 at Who's Who Worldwide, they weren't seated near you,
24 correct?
25 A That's right.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5 990
Saffer-cross/Dunn


1 Q But Sue Mantell was seated near you, correct?

2 A Not in the black room.

3 Q She was near you on a number of occasions, though; is

4 that correct?

5 A Oh, yes.

6 Q And you spoke with Sue Mantell on breaks and things

7 like that?

8 A Yes, possibly, yes.

9 Q And you considered her a friend, right?

10 A Yes.

11 Q You knew, isn't it true, you knew that she lied on

12 the phone; isn't that true?

13 A No.

14 Q Well, sir, she was fired, correct?

15 A I had no idea. I know she left for a period of

16 time. I had no idea if she was fired or what the

17 circumstances were.

18 Q You were her friend?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Are you telling this jury even though you were her

21 friend and spoke to her a number of times, that you didn't

22 know why she was let go or fired? You don't know?

23 A I don't know.
24 Q Is it your testimony, sir, that there wasn't any kind
25 of like flow of information through the office about the

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5991
Saffer-cross/Dunn


1 fact that Sue Mantell had been let go? You never heard

2 about that?

3 A I don't recall.

4 Q You had been there five years and you didn't know why

5 Sue Mantell was let go?

6 A No, I didn't.

7 Q You were close with Mr. Gordon, correct?

8 A In the sense I saw him every day.

9 Q You had the ability, you had -- you recommended Debra

10 Benjamin for an important job at company, correct?

11 A Yes, I recommended.

12 Q But you didn't know about Sue Mantell?

13 A I knew about Sue Mantell.

14 THE COURT: Mr. Dunn, that is the last question

15 about Sue Mantell.

16 MR. DUNN: At least in this area, is that okay?

17 T HE COURT: In this area, yes.

18 MR. DUNN: Thank you.

19 BY MR. DUNN:

20 Q Mr. Saffer, in March of '95 when the postal

21 inspectors marched into the Lake Success office, you were

22 really surprised, correct?

23 A Yes.
24 Q Shocked, correct?
25 A Yes.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5992
Saffer-cross/Dunn


1 Q That they marched in and basically had the whole

2 operation stopped at that point when they came in,

3 correct?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And you were shocked to have been placed under

6 arrest, correct?

7 A Yes.

8 Q You were put in handcuffs, correct?

9 A That's correct.

10 Q And an awful lot of terrible things went through your

11 mind during this entire process; is that correct?

12 A That's correct.

13 Q And you just read from the pitch; is that correct?

14 You were re ading from the pitch when you worked there,

15 correct?

16 A Yes.

17 Q You're nervous, aren't you?

18 A Anybody in this position would be nervous.

19 Q You are afraid, correct?

20 A Not afraid, but upset about this whole thing.

21 Q You were afraid on the date that the postal

22 inspectors marched into the Lake Success office, correct?

23 A I would say that is correct.
24 Q You were afraid when you were placed in handcuffs,
25 direct?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5993
Saffer-cross/Dunn


1 A Yes.

2 Q You were afraid when you were placed in a vehicle and

3 transported to someplace; is that right?

4 A Yes, that's correct.

5 Q And you reflected it on your work at Who's Who

6 Worldwide during that ride to that location in Brooklyn.

7 You thought what you had been doing at Who's Who

8 Worldwide, correct?

9 A I don't remember my thoughts at the time.

10 Q I'll withdraw that.

11 Did you ask yourself as you were being placed in

12 cuffs and transported to somewhere in New York City, did

13 you ask yourself "what did I do to get in this

14 situation?" Did you ask yourself that?

15 A I think I was in a state of shock at that time.

16 Q Did you ever sit there and ask yourself "why am I in

17 handcuffs?" "What did I do wrong?" Did you ever ask

18 yourself that?

19 MR. WHITE: Objection.

20 THE COURT: Sustained.

21 BY MR. DUNN:

22 Q Sir, isn't it true that you didn't believe you did

23 anything wrong?
24 A At that particular time I just wasn't thinking. I
25 was just in a state of shock.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5994
Saffer-cross/Dunn


1 Q Sir, after you were taken in front of a judge --

2 correct, after your arrest? Yes?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And you were released?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And you had already spoken with the postal inspector,

7 correct?

8 A Yes.

9 Q And they basically had told you that, look, you're in

10 trouble. We think you're in trouble, but you have a way

11 out of this. They basically told you that, correct?

12 A They didn't tell me I have a way out of this.

13 Q They told you --

14 A You are talking about when we were arrested?

15 Q Right after you were arrested but before you went to

16 see the Judge --

17 A Umm-hmm.

18 Q -- Did they tell you something like that?

19 A No -- did I have a way out? No, they didn't.

20 Q Mr. Saffer, you were afraid to go trial in this case,

21 isn't that true?

22 A Yes.

23 Q You were afraid that -- withdrawn.
24 The United States of America, they arrested you,
25 right?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5995
Saffer-cross/Dunn


1 A That's correct.

2 Q The most powerful government on the face of the earth

3 arrested you, correct?

4 MR. WHITE: Objection.

5 THE COURT: Sustained.

6 BY MR. DUNN:

7 Q Mr. Saffer, you didn't want to fight with them, did

8 you?

9 MR. WHITE: Objection.

10 THE COURT: Sustained.

11 Q You acknowledge you didn't want to go to trial,

12 correct? You've already acknowledged that, right?

13 A Yes.

14 Q You had been told by your lawyer that you could get

15 up to as much as five years in jail; is that right?

16 A That's correct.

17 Q You are what, are you 60 years of age yet?

18 A Not yet. Close to it.

19 Q Close.

20 You don't need this aggravation of fighting this

21 case, do you?

22 A No.

23 MR. WHITE: Objection.
24 THE COURT: Sustained.
25 BY MR. DUNN:

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5996
Saffer-cross/Dunn


1 Q You pled guilty, Mr. Saffer, isn't that true?

2 A Yes.

3 Q You pled guilty, Mr. Saffer, because you were afraid;

4 isn't that true?

5 MR. WHITE: Objection.

6 THE COURT: Overruled.

7 A Could you repeat that? Because I was afraid --

8 Q You pled guilty because you were afraid?

9 A I can't answer that yes or no without an explanation.

10 Q Fine. Explain.

11 A I pled guilty because I felt that after all the

12 wrongdoings that I did misrepresent myself on the phone

13 that I should do the right thing and plead guilty and

14 cooperate with the government.

15 Q Sir, you pled guilty in November of 1997; is that

16 right?

17 A I believe it was September.

18 Q I'm sor ry, you are correct. September of 1997.

19 A Yes, that's correct.

20 Q And isn't it a fact, sir, that your major reason for

21 pleading guilty is because you were afraid to go to

22 trial? You were afraid; isn't that true?

23 A If you could separate that question somehow.
24 Q Well, let me ask you simply this.
25 Were you afraid?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5997
Saffer-cross/Dunn


1 A Yes, I was afraid.

2 Q When you got arrested, you didn't believe you had

3 done anything wrong; isn't that true?

4 MR. WHITE: Objection.

5 THE COURT: Sustained. That's repetitive. We've

6 gone through this already.

7 Anything else, Mr. Dunn?

8 MR. DUNN: Yes, Your Honor.

9 BY MR. DUNN:

10 Q Sue Mantell, did you ever talk with Sue Mantell after

11 your arrest?

12 A Yes, I did.

13 Q And did Sue Mantell discuss with you about the fact

14 that she was going to plead guilty?

15 MR. WHITE: Objection.

16 THE COURT: Sustained.

17 A No.

18 Q You were told when you left West, you were told by a

19 postal inspecter basically that things are going wrong

20 here and you shouldn't come back?

21 A To West Who's Who.

22 Q But for five years after you had been at West, for

23 five years you worked at Who's Who Worldwide; is that
24 right?
25 A Different company. Yes.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5998
Saffer-cross/Dunn


1 Q 1990, at the end of 1990 to 1991 you had been there a

2 year, did you sit down and say to yourself, "you know, I'm

3 misrepresenting here. I should go somewhere else." Did

4 you say that to yourself, sir?

5 A Not at that time.

6 Q In 1992, after you were there for two years, did you

7 look and say to yourself, "I'm making misrepresentations.

8 I should leave this business." Did you say that?

9 A Not at that time, no.

10 Q And you didn't say it in '93 either, correct?

11 A Correct.

12 Q And you didn't say it in '94, correct?

13 A I started to think that way, but I needed the job.

14 Q You started to say it in '94 when you had lied in

15 court, correct?

16 A Correct.

17 Q There was nothing wrong with this product, correct?

18 MR. WHITE: Objection.

19 MR. DUNN: I'll withdraw it, Your Honor. I'll

20 withdraw the question.

21 BY MR. DUNN:

22 Q You were a salesman; is that right?

23 A That's correct.
24 Q I'm going to ask you if these following people were
25 salesmen. If you can just tell me yes or no.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5999
Saffer-cross/Dunn


1 A Yes.

2 Q Ed Schaeffer. Stan Joel?

3 A Ed Schaeffer was.

4 Q Stan Joel?

5 A That name didn't ring a bill.

6 Q Kim Brooks?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Mike Powers?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Steve Beck?

11 A Yes.

12 Q These are Who's Who Worldwide?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Kenneth McCarthy?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Do you know anyone by the name of Wood that worked at

17 Who's Who Worldwide that was a salesperson?

18 A I believe there was a Wood, yes.

19 Q Christine Brenner?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Carl Roper?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Allison Mayo?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Michele Kelly?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6000
Saffer-cross/Dunn


1 A Yes.

2 Q Tina Walsh?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Robert Bullock?

5 A Bullock? I'm not positive.

6 Q Angela Palmer?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Joseph Par ks?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Anthony Casimona?

11 A Doesn't ring a bell.

12 Q Those people were all salespeople at Who's Who

13 Worldwide, the ones you acknowledge knowing, right?

14 A Yes.

15 Q None of them are in this courtroom, correct?

16 A Correct.

17 Q Did you ever work at Sterling Who's Who?

18 A No.

19 Q Did Steve Rubin, to your knowledge, ever work at

20 Sterling Who's Who?

21 A I have no idea. I know he worked for Who's Who

22 Worldwide.

23 Q Scott Michaelson worked at Who's Who Worldwide,
24 correct?
25 A Yes.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6001
Saffer-cross/Dunn


1 Q Laura Weitz worked at Who's Who Worldwide?

2 MR. LEE: Objection -- withdrawn

3 BY MR. DUNN:

4 Q Annette Haley worked at Who's Who Worldwide?

5 A Yes.

6 Q You didn't know anyone who worked at Who's Who

7 Worldwide, did you?

8 A No, to the best of my knowledge, I didn't know

9 anybody.

10 Q You had nothing to do with Sterling Who's Who; is

11 that correct?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Totally different operation, right, as far as you

14 knew?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And Steve Rubin. Based on what you knew about Steve

17 Rubin, did he appear to really believe in the product at

18 Who's Who Worldwide?

19 A Totally, yes.

20 Q Totally.

21 A He believed it.

22 Q 100 percent, correct?

23 A That's the impression I got.
24 Q When you were looking for work after the case was
25 over -- withdrawn.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6002
Saffer-cross/Lee


1 After your arrest, at some point you started to

2 look for work again; is that correct?

3 A That's correct.

4 Q Did Steve Rubin ever give you any leads for places to

5 look for employment?

6 A Yes, he did. He gave me a lead.

7 Q A lead?

8 A Yes.

9 MR. DUNN: I have no further questions, Your

10 Honor.

11 MR. LEE: I have some questions, Your Honor.

12 CROSS-EXAMINATION

13 BY MR. LEE:

14 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Saffer.

15 A Hello.

16 Q Just let me put my stuff down.

17 Mr. Saffer, you would agree with me, as I'm sure

18 it has been asked a few times, that this arrest was one of

19 the most or if not the most shocking and disturbing events

20 that ever occurred in your life, that would be fair to

21 say?

22 A Yes, it would.

23 Q And you stated you were in such a state of shock,
24 things just didn't even sink in for a while; is that
25 right? You were totally shocked. You just weren't

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

6003
Saffer-cross/Lee


1 thinking, that's what you said to Mr. Dunn?

2 A I didn't say I wasn't thinking. I was just in a

3 state of shock.

4 Q In a state of shock.

5 And do you recall that after a while -- after a

6 while I think you testified that you had a meeting with,

7 you went with your attorney, Mr. Myers, and you went to

8 see the government. You spoke to Mr. White. That was

9 about on April 18, 1995, a few weeks?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And you stated that when you went there it was your

12 intention to tell what happened, right, to explain to them

13 about yourself, correct?

14 A It was my intention to talk to them, to listen to

15 what they had to say.

16 Q Yes.

17 There came a time, am I right, that it was

18 November 7th of 1996, that was a time when you entered

19 into a cooperation agreement with the government, correct?

20 A Yes, I believe it was September of '97.

21 MR. LEE: Do we have Exhibit 3500-B?

22 A Yes, I believe it was September of '96.

23 MR. LEE: Your Honor, we are just waiting for the
24 production of evidence.
25 THE COURT: Yes.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6004
Saffer-cross/Lee


1 MR. LEE: 3500-D.

2 BY MR. LEE:

3 Q While it's being looked for, Mr. Saffer, I'm trying

4 to simplify it as much as I can, my questions, so you can

5 answer yes or no. Okay?

6 A Certainly.

7 Q And if you don't understand you will certainly let me

8 know?

9 A I will.

10 Q This cooperation agreement, it was basically, would

11 it be fair for me to say, a contract, an agreement between

12 you and the prosecution. It was an agreement. There was

13 -- would you call it that?

14 A Yes.

15 Q There were obl igations, commitments by both sides.

16 You in the agreement made promises to the government,

17 correct, that you would do certain things for them?

18 A That's correct.

19 Q That's a fair statement, isn't it?

20 A That's fair.

21 Q And in return in this contract the government said

22 that they would do certain things afterwards, correct,

23 that they would write a letter on your behalf?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q So just to sum it up again, you had certain

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6005
Saffer-cross/Lee


1 agreements in that contract, which I'll show you in a

2 second, I don't mean to talk about it without it in front

3 of you, and then in return forthcoming back to you there

4 were obligations on behalf of the government, correct? Is

5 that correct?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And I just want to show you right now, M r. Saffer,

8 3500-25-D. Do you see that?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Now, first of all, I just want to direct your

11 attention to it. You signed the agreement, correct?

12 A That's correct.

13 Q Your lawyer signed the agreement; isn't that correct?

14 A Yes.

15 Q And Mr. White signed the agreement?

16 A Yes.

17 Q On behalf of the United States Attorney's Office; is

18 that correct?

19 A That's correct.

20 Q And the date of the agreement was November 7, 1996?

21 A November 7, 1996. That's correct.

22 Q Now, am I correct that in that agreement you, named

23 the defendant, you agreed you would waive indictment and
24 you would plead guilty to an instrument, a legal document
25 that's called an information?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6006
Saffer-cross/Lee


1 A That's correct.

2 Q And that was th e document -- that was going to be

3 instead of an indictment that was going to be the charging

4 instrument that would substantively describe the things

5 that you had done wrong that broke the law; is that

6 correct?

7 A That's correct.

8 Q And you agreed that -- first of all, you agreed you

9 would plead guilty to an information, correct?

10 A To what?

11 Q You agreed in paragraph one that you would plead

12 guilty to an information?

13 A That's correct.

14 Q And that was on a subsequent date. You didn't do it

15 on the same date. You pled guilty subsequently, right, to

16 an information on a later date?

17 A That's correct. I pled guilty on a later date.

18 Q And you agreed to testify at any proceeding on behalf

19 of the Assistant District Attorney, Assistant United

20 States Attorney's Office; is that correct?

21 A That's correct.

22 Q Now, that information is 25-E, as in Edward.

23 I want to show you this document, Government's
24 Exhibit 3500-25-E, okay, Mr. Saffer?
25 A Sure.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6007
Saffer-cross/Lee


1 Q And I just want to point something out to you.

2 Do you recognize the document?

3 A Yes.

4 Q That's the information you pled guilty.

5 And the date was -- it wouldn't be on here, I

6 don't think, but the date you pled guilty was, do you

7 recall it was -- well, you pled guilty to that document on

8 September 8, 1997. Do you recall that?

9 A That's correct.

10 Q Now, in that instrument itself, I want to point to

11 the same paragraph. In this information you basically

12 admitted that you had committed conspiracy to commit mail

13 fraud, would that be a fair statement?

14 A Yes.

15 Q And thi s was in front of a judge, in fact, in this

16 courthouse; is that correct?

17 A That's correct.

18 Q Who was Magistrate Pohorelsky?

19 A I believe that is his name.

20 Q And your lawyer was with you?

21 A Yes, he was.

22 Q And in that document did you admit, referring to this

23 (indicating), did you admit that you, Alan Saffer, the
24 defendant, that you had misrepresented to potential
25 customers that there were conferences that had been held

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6008
Saffer-cross/Lee


1 in Vietnam and Hilton Head?

2 A Yes, I did. Yes.

3 Q You admitted that by pleading guilty to that; is that

4 correct?

5 A That's correct.

6 Q And also as part of this charging instrument, the

7 information, you also admitted that you were guilty of

8 telephone conversations, sales calls on behalf of Who 's

9 Who Worldwide that you failed, that you had failed to

10 inform potential customers of the B balance, correct? You

11 stated that?

12 A Yes.

13 Q You pled guilty to that; is that correct?

14 A That is correct.

15 Q Now, have you ever heard -- I believe you said you

16 did -- did you hear taped conversations of you including

17 the one that Mr. Trabulus played to you, where you were

18 tape-recorded while you were employed at Who's Who

19 Worldwide and you were conducting a qualifying interview

20 with a confidential informant, a person Steve West

21 Watstein?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And have you had the opportunity to hear those tapes?
24 A Yes.
25 Q When did you hear those tapes?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6009
Saffer-cross/Lee


1 A I heard them yesterday or today.

2 Q All of them?

3 A All of them? The one tape with West.

4 Q You heard one?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Are you aware that there were other tape-recordings

7 made of you?

8 A Yes, I heard two other tapes also.

9 Q What is the total you think you heard?

10 A Three, all total.

11 Q Maybe four?

12 A I think three.

13 MR. LEE: Your Honor, at this time I intend to

14 play tape Government's Exhibit GX 13-73 which is already

15 in evidence, but there is no transcript for the jury to

16 refer to because I'm only going to play just the relevant

17 portion.

18 THE COURT: Very well.

19 MR. LEE: If I can get that.

20 THE COURT: What is the letter of this tape?

21 MR. LEE: It is an exhibit already as

22 Government's Exhibit 13-73, Your Honor.

23 THE COURT: But no transcript.
24 MR. LEE: No transcript. I'm playing a small
25 portion.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6010
Saffer-cross/Lee


1 I'm showing it to Mr. White, Your Honor.

2 As I stated, it's Government's Exhibit 13-73 and

3 it is a taped conversation that occurred on March 2,

4 1995.

5 THE WITNESS: Okay.

6 (Audiotape played.)

7 (Start and stop.)

8 BY MR. LEE:

9 Q I'll just stop it and ask you a question.

10 Do you recognize your voice?

11 A Yes, I do.

12 (Audiotape played.)

13 (Start and stop.)

14 Q Now, you heard that, right?

15 A Yes.

16 Q You were describing the split billing and the B

17 balance.

18 A Yes, that's correct.

19 Q That's contrary -- well, that was on March 2, 1995.

20 That was prior to the date of your pleading guilty to that

21 information; is that correct?

22 A That's correct.

23 MR. LEE: I'm going to play you another tape.

24 Judge, at this time I'm playing from another tape
25 that is already evidence, admitted in evidence,

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6011
Saffer-cross/Lee


1 Government's Exhibit 13-37. There's no transcript on it.

2 I'll play a small portion, and it's a

3 conversation that occurred on 12/21/94 between Mr. Saffer

4 and Steven West Watstein.

5 (Audiotape played.)

6 (Start and stop.)

7 BY MR. LEE:

8 Q Now, Mr. Saffer, did you misrepresent or fail to

9 apprise Mr. West who you thought was a customer of the B

10 balance?

11 A I mentioned it.

12 Q You mentioned it.

13 A Yes.

14 Q You didn't misrepresent it, did you?

15 A Not at that time, no.

16 Q And you didn't fail to apprise him of an outstanding

17 balance due; is that correct?

18 A That's correct.

19 Q Now, this occurred, this con versation occurred on

20 12/24/94. That was before you entered into a cooperation

21 agreement with the government; is that correct?

22 A That's correct.

23 Q That was on November 7th of 1996?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q And in that cooperation agreement you were

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6012
Saffer-cross/Lee


1 committed. You were obligated to plead guilty to an

2 information, correct, as I just asked you before?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And that information was a document that was

5 submitted and prepared by whom? By the government, right?

6 A By the government.

7 Q For your review.

8 It was prepared by the government and you and

9 your lawyer looked it over?

10 A That's correct.

11 Q And pursuant to that agreement you had to plead

12 guilty to an information; is that correct?

13 A That's correct.

14 Q As we looked at it before in that information, that

15 information, you said to a judge that you were guilty of

16 misrepresenting B balances, right?

17 A It says Alan Saffer and others.

18 Q Does it say Alan Saffer?

19 A Alan Saffer and others.

20 Q Does it say Alan Saffer?

21 A Yes.

22 Q So you pled guilty to Alan Saffer doing that; is that

23 correct?
24 It doesn't say Alan Saffer, or does it?
25 A No.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6013
Saffer-cross/Lee


1 Q It says Alan Saffer and?

2 A Yes.

3 Q So in fact, not only in the indictment that was

4 prepared by the government did you say that you did

5 something, this document prepared by the government pulled

6 everybody in and said you and everybody else, correct?

7 A That's correct.

8 MR. LEE: I just want to play another tap e for

9 you.

10 Your Honor, this is Government's Exhibit 13-78

11 already admitted in evidence. There is no transcript

12 because, again, I'm just playing a small portion, and

13 this, again, is a conversation between Mr. Saffer but

14 another person whose initials are EI. I believe he's a

15 confidential informant working for the government and it

16 occurred on March 27, 1995.

17 (Audiotape played.)

18 (Start and stop.)

19 BY MR. LEE:

20 Q Mr. Saffer, did you misrepresent the B balance in

21 that conversation you just heard?

22 A No, I didn't. I mentioned the B balance.

23 Q You accurately described it?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Did you misrepresent it as -- you pled guilty to that

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6014
Saffer-cross/Lee


1 information?

2 A I didn't plead guilty to only that one.

3 Q I played you three tapes so far.

4 A Yes.

5 Q And in those three tapes --

6 A I did mention the B balance.

7 Q You didn't mislead anybody in that as far as the

8 balance, right?

9 A No.

10 Q Contrary to what was in that information provided to

11 you by the government, right?

12 A No, because there had been times where I didn't

13 mention a B balance in the past.

14 Q I played you three and right now we're three for

15 three, we're batting 1,000?

16 A Three out of three.

17 Q Three out of three?

18 A Three times.

19 Q And would you be surprised, did anyone inform you

20 there have only been four tape-recordings?

21 A I only heard three.

22 MR. LEE: I have a fourth one for you. I'll fast

23 forward to this one, just the relevant portion.
24 (Audiotape played.)
25 (Start and stop.)

OWEN M. WI CKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6015
Saffer-cross/Lee


1 BY MR. LEE:

2 Q And just so we're clear, these three conversations

3 that I played for you, these portions, you had no idea

4 whatsoever that there was a government agent who was

5 posing as a customer and calling you? You had no idea?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q That was before you ever heard -- withdrawn.

8 That was before postal inspectors came in and

9 told you they thought something was wrong, right?

10 A That's correct.

11 Q You had no reason to believe whatsoever that anyone

12 would be listening in such that you would say something

13 other than what you would say in the normal course of your

14 business as a salesperson at Who's Who Worldwide; is that

15 correct?

16 A That's correct.

17 MR. LEE: I'm going to play another portion.

18 (Audiotape played.)

19 (Sta rt and stop.)

20 BY MR. LEE:

21 Q Did you hear that?

22 A Except for the meetings.

23 Q Well, did you hear it clearly?
24 A Yes.
25 Q The person at the other end, the confidential

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6016
Saffer-cross/Lee


1 informant, was asking about opportunities to network or

2 meet with other people; is that correct?

3 A That's correct.

4 Q At first you gave sort of an affirmative but you

5 caught yourself -- withdrawn.

6 What happened was, it was unclear, but you came

7 back to make sure that you and this person on the other

8 end understood each other clearly and you said "meetings,

9 no, no, no. No meetings." Is basically that in substance

10 what you said?

11 A That's what I said.

12 Q That was before your cooperation agreement, right?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And in the i ndictment -- excuse me, in the

15 information you recall you admitted to pleading guilty to

16 misrepresenting that conferences had occurred; is that

17 correct?

18 A That's correct.

19 Q And in this conversation you told the customer "we

20 don't have meetings." You said no meetings?

21 A That's correct, I did say that.

22 MR. LEE: And I'll play you, just to make sure,

23 one last tape.
24 This is one that had been offered into evidence
25 by Mr. Trabulus as Defendant's Exhibit GB, as in Boy, and

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6017
Saffer-cross/Lee


1 again, I don't have any transcript of it, just a small

2 portion.

3 The date of this conversation is 12/2/94, and it

4 is between Mr. Saffer and Mr. Steven West Watstein. I

5 believe the jury has heard part of this.

6 THE COURT: What is this number again, Mr. L ee?

7 MR. LEE: Admitted by Mr. Trabulus, Defendant's

8 Exhibit GB, as in Boy.

9 (Audiotape played.)

10 (Start and stop.)

11 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.

12 MR. LEE: I'll just back it up.

13 Are we ready?

14 (Start and stop.)

15 BY MR. LEE:

16 Q Again, did you accurately describe to that person on

17 the other end of that line split billing?

18 A Yes.

19 Q So there was no misrepresentation as to an

20 outstanding balance, was there?

21 A No, there wasn't.

22 Q Have you ever heard any other tapes of your

23 conversations?
24 A No, that's all I've heard.
25 Q That's the only -- maybe we cannot put our fingers or

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6018
Saffer-cross/Lee


1 hands on it, but that's the only hard evidence we ever

2 heard about what type of conversations we would have had

3 before your arrest; is that correct?

4 A That's correct.

5 Q And that's about the only thing that the jury will

6 have to look at when -- and hear when they are back there,

7 about what you said prior to the government getting ahold

8 of you; is that correct?

9 A No.

10 MR. WHITE: Objection.

11 THE COURT: May I have the question, please.

12 (Record read.)

13 THE COURT: Well, as to the form, sustained.

14 BY MR. LEE:

15 Q Prior to the government's arrest of you, you don't

16 know of any other tapes that would demonstrate to this

17 jury that you were doing prior to the time that the

18 government came in and arrested you, right?

19 A I wouldn't know that.

20 Q But there is something, right? We have your plea to

21 an information, right, that says you are guilty?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And in the same way that you said that you're gu ilty
24 of having misrepresented B balances and in the same way in
25 that indictment, information, I'm sorry.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6019
Saffer-cross/Lee


1 In the same way that you said you were guilty of

2 misrepresenting B balances and in the same way that you

3 pled guilty to your misrepresenting the occurrence of

4 conferences, you also in the indictment also pled guilty

5 to conspiracy to commit mail fraud and misrepresenting

6 things; isn't that true? You say you also pled guilty to

7 that?

8 A That's correct.

9 Q That's the same indictment, right?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Same information?

12 A That's correct.

13 Q And when you pled guilty to that information, didn't

14 the Judge say that he wanted to ask you questions to make

15 sure that you really were guilty of what you were pleading

16 g uilty to?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Did anyone, do you recall anybody informing the Judge

19 of the existence of this tape or tapes where you in fact

20 were accurately describing the B balance and telling

21 people that conferences didn't occur? Did anyone ever say

22 that to the Judge in that courtroom on that day?

23 A I don't remember.
24 Q Did the government tell the Judge?
25 A I don't remember.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6020
Saffer-cross/Lee


1 Q You don't remember and you don't think so, right?

2 A I said I don't remember.

3 Q Now, did you ever, during the time of your employment

4 at Who's Who Worldwide, did you ever write an order for a

5 customer for a membership that that customer had not

6 agreed to purchase following one of your interviews? Did

7 you ever do that?

8 A Not to the best of my knowledge.

9 Q You would remember if you did that, correct, do you

10 think?

11 A I wrote many, many orders there over the course of

12 five years.

13 Q But you can't remember right now for this jury, you

14 can't tell them of one instance where you wrote an order

15 to a customer when that customer had not agreed to

16 purchase a membership; is that correct?

17 A That's correct.

18 Q I'm just going to refer you to the information,

19 Government's Exhibit 3500 25-E.

20 I would ask you to just look at that.

21 A 13?

22 Q Yes.

23 Just tell me when you are finished reading it.
24 I'm referring to page 7, paragraph 13 of that
25 information, Government's Exhibit 3500-25-E. Did you read

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6021
Saffer-cross/Lee


1 that, sir?

2 A I'm looking at it now.

3 Q Let me know whe n you are finished, sir.

4 A All right.

5 Q Are you finished?

6 A No (perusing.)

7 Q Is it a fair statement by me in that information that

8 you pled guilty to, paragraph 13 says that you and

9 others --

10 A At times.

11 Q Well, does it say "at times"?

12 A At times.

13 Q Okay. Then I'll read the whole thing.

14 It says "it was part of the conspiracy that at

15 times defendant Alan Saffer and others billed potential

16 customers for memberships that they had not agreed to

17 purchase following telephone sales calls by the company's

18 sales staff."

19 Did you plead guilty to an information that

20 contained that statement as I've just read it or stated

21 it?

22 A Yes, I guess I did.

23 Q So in open court like today, you stated in front of a
24 judge that you were guilty of that and you just told us
25 you didn't do that, correct?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6022
Saffer-cross/Lee


1 A I don't remember doing it.

2 Q Oh, you don't remember.

3 You know, Mr. Saffer, you don't really want to

4 say anything in this courtroom as you testify that would

5 hurt anybody. You don't want to hurt anybody, right?

6 A I'm just here to tell the truth.

7 Q And what you want to do -- and the truth is what you

8 said to the Judge you would do when you pled guilty to the

9 information?

10 A Excuse me?

11 Q Did you tell the Judge when you pled guilty that you

12 would tell the truth? Did you take an oath that day?

13 A Yes, I did.

14 Q And you took an oath too today, same thing?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And I mean, just to simplify it, really, Mr. Saffer,

17 it would be a fair statement by me what you really want to

18 do is you want to fulfill your end of the agreement so

19 that the government will fulfill their end of the

20 agreement. Isn't that really what you want?

21 A No, I'm here to tell the truth.

22 Q That's right. But you have an agreement with the

23 government; is that correct?
24 A That's correct, to testify in court.
25 Q And if you don't fulfill your obligations under that

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6023
Saffer-cross/Lee


1 agreement, would the government be obligated to go to bat

2 for you and ask whoever sentences you, would they be

3 obligated to go to bat and write a 5K letter for you?

4 A No, they will not.

5 Q If they are not happy?

6 A Excuse me?

7 Q If they are not happy?

8 A I don't know if they're happy or not.

9 Q Let me rephrase it as exact as I can so there is no

10 misunderstanding.

11 You have the cooperation agreement in front of

12 you?

13 A Is this it?

14 Q No, that's not it.

15 I'll show you my copy. Do you see that? That's

16 what you looked at before; is that correct?

17 A That's correct.

18 Q Just looking here, let me ask you some questions as

19 you are looking at it, okay?

20 Who determines if the defendant, meaning Alan

21 Saffer cooperated fully, can you name the entity, who

22 determines that?

23 A The District Attorney.
24 Q The prosecution there, the Assistant U.S. Attorney?
25 A Ron White.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6024
Saffer-cross/Lee


1 Q It's not the Judge who determines it, right?

2 A That's correct.

3 Q So even if the Judge, whatever he felt and I'm not

4 imputing anything to the Judge, but that's not the person

5 who determines that, is that your understand ing?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And I'm not talking about sentencing. Sentencing is

8 always within the province of a judge; is that correct?

9 A That's correct.

10 Q I'm saying who determines that you have cooperated

11 fully enough such that they are even obligated to write

12 the letter?

13 Who?

14 A Who did it? Ron White.

15 Q And from your heart, from your heart, if you didn't

16 fulfill your part of this bargain, your fear is that you

17 would go to jail, right?

18 A That's correct.

19 MR. LEE: I have no further questions.

20 THE COURT: Anything else?

21 MR. SCHOER: Yes, Judge. I have some questions.

22 (Continued.)

23
24
25

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6025
Saffer-cross/Schoer


1 CROSS-EXAMINATION

2 BY MR. SCHOER:

3 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Saffer.

4 A He llo.

5 Q You indicated that there came a time you entered a

6 plea; is that correct?

7 A That's correct.

8 Q And prior to entering a plea you had discussions with

9 your attorney; is that correct?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And you also had discussions with the government,

12 Mr. White; is that right?

13 A That's correct.

14 Q Now, you signed that cooperation agreement; is that

15 correct?

16 A Did I sign it? Yes, I did.

17 Q About a year after you signed the cooperation

18 agreement, that's when you actually pled guilty; is that

19 correct?

20 A Approximately, yes.

21 Q How many meetings did you have with the government

22 between the time that you signed the cooperation agreement

23 and the time you actually pled guilty?
24 A Approximately five, I believe.
25 Q Who was present at those meetings?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6026
Saffer-cross/Schoer


1 A Mr. Ron White and my attorney Mr. Myers and Al

2 Pagano.

3 Q Inspector Pagano?

4 A Inspector, I'm sorry.

5 Q At none of those five meetings you had between the

6 time you signed the cooperation agreement and the time you

7 pled guilty, had anybody took notes?

8 A Did anybody take notes? I believe there may have

9 been some notes taken. I'm not sure.

10 Q Well, you didn't take notes?

11 A I didn't take notes.

12 Q And your attorney didn't take notes, did he?

13 A I'm not sure whether he did or not. I'm not sure he

14 did.

15 Q Well, did Inspector Al Pagano take notes on those

16 occasions?

17 A I believe he might have. I'm not positive he did.

18 Q Is it fair to say on each of those five occasions the

19 meetings extended for an extended period of time?

20 A A few hours.

21 Q So on each occasion the meetings lasted for a few

22 hours and as far as you remember someone from the

23 government took notes; is that correct?
24 A That's correct. As far as I remember.
25 MR. SCHOER: Well, I would ask the government if

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6027
Saffer-cross/Schoer


1 they have those notes other than the one set of notes they

2 provided to us from the time prior to the entry of the

3 cooperation agreement.

4 MR. WHITE: May I answer, Your Honor?

5 THE COURT: Yes.

6 MR. WHITE: As you know, Mr. Schoer, the answer

7 is no.

8 MR. SCHOER: Well, I don't know, Judge. I'm

9 relying on the witness' testimony.

10 THE COURT: All right. The answer is no.

11 MR. WHITE: And I told him that repeatedly.

12 THE COURT: Well, counsel has a right to ask for

13 notes and you h ave a right to respond that you have none.

14 BY MR. SCHOER:

15 Q Now, the day that you were arrested, you said that

16 you were taken first to an office; is that correct?

17 After you were arrested you were taken to an

18 office someplace by an Inspector Biegelman or one other

19 inspector?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And you were interviewed; is that right?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And before you were interviewed were you read
24 warnings? You know what the Miranda warnings are?
25 A Yes.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6028
Saffer-cross/Schoer


1 Q Were you read those?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Did you have to signed those Miranda warnings?

4 A I don't know if I had to sign it or not.

5 Q After you were read the Miranda warnings you were

6 asked whether you wanted to make a statement or not; is

7 that correct?

8 A A t the time I was arrested, I was in a state of

9 shock, okay, and this, my Miranda rights were verbally

10 read to me.

11 Q You didn't answer the question. Just listen to the

12 question.

13 After your Miranda rights were read to you, were

14 you asked whether or not you wanted to make a statement?

15 Yes or no?

16 A I don't remember.

17 Q At that time did the government ask you to provide

18 them with handwriting samples?

19 A I don't remember that.

20 Q Before you took the plea you had discussed with your

21 attorney all of your options; isn't that correct?

22 A That's correct.

23 Q And did he explain to you that in the complaint you
24 were charged with a conspiracy; isn't that right?
25 A That's correct.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6029
Saffer-cross/Schoer


1 Q And that you could get five year s for that

2 conspiracy, up to five years in jail; is that correct?

3 A That's correct.

4 Q Did he also tell you you were in the complaint

5 charged with specific acts of mailings as well; is that

6 correct?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Did he tell you for each of those acts of mailings

9 you also can get five years?

10 A I don't remember.

11 Q Did he tell you that you could get consecutive

12 five-year sentences for the conspiracy and for the acts of

13 mailing?

14 A I really don't remember. I remember five years, the

15 term of five years in jail.

16 Q Well, did he tell you there was a possibility you

17 could get even more than five years in jail based on the

18 charges that the government was ready to bring against

19 you?

20 A As far as the perjury charge, if I was charged, that

21 would be a separate entity, I believe.

22 Q And the m ailings as well, right?

23 A That I don't remember.
24 Q Now --
25 A I recall him mentioning to me conspiracy to commit

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6030
Saffer-cross/Schoer


1 mail fraud when sentenced.

2 Q Let me ask you that, conspiracy to commit mail

3 fraud. You've testified here you didn't have anything to

4 do with any of the mailings; isn't that right?

5 A That's correct.

6 Q You didn't even know how the mailings were made, did

7 you?

8 A That's correct.

9 Q And you never even saw any of the letters that were

10 sent; isn't that right?

11 A That's correct.

12 Q So you didn't know anything about any mailings, isn't

13 that fair to say?

14 A I knew there was a mailing because I was getting lead

15 cards.

16 Q You were getting cards back?

17 A Yes.

18 Q The cards don 't use the word "nominated" on the

19 cards, do they?

20 A No.

21 Q So you never saw any mailing that used the word

22 "nominated," did you, in the five years that you were

23 there?
24 Did you see any mailing to anyone that said they
25 were nominated to be in this organization?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6031
Saffer-cross/Schoer


1 A I didn't see it, no.

2 Q There came a time on September 18, 1997, that you

3 pled guilty before Magistrate Pohorelsky downstairs; is

4 that correct?

5 A That's correct.

6 MR. SCHOER: I always mispronounce his name.

7 THE COURT: Pohorelsky.

8 MR. SCHOER: I apologize, Judge.

9 BY MR. SCHOER:

10 Q At that time when you pled guilty, the Magistrate

11 swore you; isn't that correct?

12 A That's correct.

13 Q And you were sworn to tell the truth; isn't t hat

14 correct?

15 A That's correct.

16 Q Well, do you remember being asked these questions and

17 giving these answers?

18 "The Court: In connection with the ongoing

19 operation.

20 "Mr. Saffer: Yes, the mails we used, yes, to

21 send a reply card, a card that you were nominated by an

22 established member of Who's Who Worldwide."

23 Now, that's not true, right? The card didn't
24 have the word "nominated" on it, is that correct, the
25 reply card?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6032
Saffer-cross/Schoer


1 A The reply card, no, it didn't.

2 Q And then the Court says:

3 "The Court: And you knew that that was --

4 "Mr. Saffer: False."

5 Isn't that correct?

6 A Can I see that in here?

7 MR. SCHOER: Judge, the witness just asked me is

8 this the same as the information and I'm advisin g him --

9 THE COURT: No, that is a transcript of what

10 occurred when you pleaded guilty. There was a reporter

11 there just as there was here and he takes down, he or she

12 took down every word.

13 THE WITNESS: I did say false.

14 BY MR. SCHOER:

15 Q You didn't even know whether or not the word

16 "nominated" was in any of the mailings; isn't that

17 correct?

18 A That's correct. I assumed.

19 Q But you didn't know, right? And you were sworn to

20 tell the truth and you were testifying before a judge; is

21 that correct?

22 A That's correct. I testified.

23 Q And then the Court says "and you knew" meaning when
24 you were working there "that that was a part of the
25 overall operation to send a card that said nominated, that

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6033
Saffer-cross/Schoer


1 --" I'm sorry . "And you knew that that was a part of the

2 overall operation, such a mailing to occur on a regular

3 basis?" And you said "yes." Is that correct?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And you didn't know on a regular basis there was a

6 letter that went out that said "nominated," did you?

7 A There had to be a letter because --

8 Q I'm asking you, of your own knowledge, did you ever

9 see a letter that went out that used the word "nominated"?

10 A No, I didn't.

11 Q So you didn't know when you told the Judge when you

12 knew that it was part of the overall operation for such a

13 letter to go out. You didn't know that?

14 MR. WHITE: Objection. Misstating the testimony.

15 THE COURT: What testimony?

16 MR. WHITE: The guilty plea proceeding that

17 Mr. Schoer just read.

18 THE COURT: May I see it, please?

19 MR. SCHOER: (Handing to Court.)

20 MR. WHITE: He was refe rring to a card being

21 mailed, not a letter.

22 THE COURT: Well, I can't decipher what the

23 answer.
24 "The Court: And you knew that that was --
25 "Mr. Saffer: False."

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6034
Saffer-cross/Schoer


1 The question that precedes that was -- well, the

2 Court said:

3 "The Court: As a result of your sales

4 conversations, were there any follow-up mailings or items

5 that were sent in the mail either by Who's Who or by the

6 prospective members?

7 "Mr. Saffer: Were there? After I spoke to

8 them?

9 "The Court: Yes. In connection with the ongoing

10 operation.

11 "Mr. Saffer: --"

12 How do you pronounce your name?

13 THE WITNESS: Saffer.

14 THE COURT: Okay.

15 "Mr. Saffer: The mails we use, yes, to send a

16 reply card, the card that you were nomin ated by an

17 established member of Who's Who Worldwide.

18 "The Court: And you knew that that was --

19 "Mr. Saffer: False.

20 "The Court: And you knew that that was a part of

21 the overall operation such a mailing to occur on a regular

22 basis?

23 "Mr. Saffer: Yes."
24 So I don't know. What is your question?
25 THE WITNESS: That's why I'm confused.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6035
Saffer-cross/Schoer


1 THE COURT: Your question that did he know of his

2 own personal knowledge is another question.

3 MR. SCHOER: Judge, maybe I can clarify it.

4 THE COURT: You can bring that out. Certainly

5 you have already. He said he doesn't know of his own

6 personal knowledge. Meaning, did he see the mailing or

7 did he know that it was mailed? Did he watch the

8 mailing?

9 BY MR. SCHOER:

10 Q When you worked at Who's Who Worldwide before the

11 date you were arrested, you did not know that any letters

12 were sent out with the word "nominated," whether they be

13 cards, whether they be letters, before you spoke to

14 somebody on the phone or letters after you spoke to

15 somebody on the phone; is that correct?

16 A That's correct.

17 THE COURT: That clarified it, Mr. Schoer.

18 MR. SCHOER: Thank you.

19 THE COURT: Much better than I did. I may have

20 confused it, as a matter of fact.

21 BY MR. SCHOER:

22 Q So when you told the Magistrate that you knew that

23 letters went out, whether that be before you talked to
24 someone on the phone or after, whether it be a card or
25 letter, when you told the Magistrate that you knew when

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6036
Saffer-cross/Schoer


1 you worked there, that a letter went out using the word

2 "nominated," you were mistaken, you lied? Isn't that so?

3 MR. WHITE: Objection.

4 THE COURT: Sustained.

5 BY MR. SCHOER:

6 Q You were not correct, right?

7 THE COURT: Sustained. He never said that in the

8 allocution at that point that I saw. He was not asked

9 whether he knew that there were any mailings that went out

10 with the word "nominated" and when he said false it was

11 referring to some cards. I don't know what he was saying

12 frankly.

13 BY MR. SCHOER:

14 Q Well, you pled guilty to mail fraud, right?

15 A That's conspiracy to commit mail fraud.

16 Q Did you conspire with anyone to commit any mail fraud

17 as far as you know?

18 Did you conspire with anyone to send out any

19 mail?

20 MR. WHITE: Objection.

21 THE COURT: Well, which question do we have now?

22 MR. SCHOER: Did yo u conspire with anybody to

23 send out any mail?
24 MR. WHITE: Objection.
25 THE COURT: Overruled.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6037
Saffer-cross/Schoer


1 A I don't know how to answer that question.

2 Q When you spoke with your attorney about pleading

3 guilty, did he discuss with you the guidelines?

4 A Yes, he did.

5 Q The sentencing guidelines?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And did he give you an estimate of what your

8 sentencing guideline would be?

9 A Yes, he did.

10 Q And what was that?

11 Well, let me ask you this first. That estimate

12 of your sentencing guideline was based at least in part

13 upon the amount of fraud the government claimed you were

14 involved with; isn't that correct?

15 A That's correct.

16 Q And did he at the time tell you that the government

17 claimed that you wer e involved with 20,000,000 worth of

18 fraud?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And that the government wanted to hold you

21 responsible for $20,000,000 worth of fraud under the

22 guidelines?

23 THE COURT: Did who say this now?
24 MR. SCHOER: Did his attorney?
25 A Did my attorney? I don't recall.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6038
Saffer-cross/Schoer


1 Q Do you recall what guideline your attorney told you?

2 A Yes.

3 Q And what did he tell you your guidelines would be if

4 you didn't enter into this cooperation agreement?

5 A Approximately two to four years. Approximately.

6 Q So he told you if you didn't enter into this

7 cooperation agreement, Judge Spatt or whatever judge you

8 went in front of, would have to sentence you to anywhere

9 from two years to four years; isn't that so?

10 A That's correct.

1 1 Q And that's why you entered into the cooperation

12 agreement, right?

13 A That's correct.

14 Q You wanted to avoid going to jail, right?

15 A That's correct.

16 Q And that's what you hoped to get from your testimony

17 here, isn't that so, a nonjail sentence, right?

18 A Or a reduced sentence.

19 Q Well, you hope to get a nonjail sentence, right?

20 A Yes, I do.

21 Q He also told you that you could be fined, right?

22 A That's correct.

23 Q And you might have to pay restitution, right?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q $20,000,000 worth of restitution, right?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6039
Saffer-cross/Schoer


1 A He didn't say 20,000,000. He said restitution up to

2 900,000, I believe.

3 Q You don't have that kind of money, do you?

4 A No, I don't.

5 Q You didn't want to have to face that, did you?

6 A Excuse me?

7 Q You didn't want to have to face having to pay even

8 $900,000 worth of restitution at your age, right?

9 A Correct.

10 Q Now, the place that you work at now you are doing

11 telemarketing, aren't you?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Did you tell those people that you pled guilty to

14 mail fraud?

15 A No.

16 Q Do you plan to tell them that?

17 A No, if I could avoid it.

18 Q Did anyone advise you when you are sentenced that

19 might be a condition of any probation that you get that

20 you advise your employers of your conviction?

21 A Could you repeat that, please?

22 Q Did anyone tell you that that might be a condition of

23 any sentence you might get of probation?
24 A Yes.
25 Q That you advise your employers that you've been found

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6040
Saffe r-cross/Schoer


1 guilty of mail fraud?

2 A Yes, I was told there is a possibility.

3 Q And you're hoping also through your cooperation to

4 avoid having the Judge say that at the time you're

5 sentenced; isn't that true?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q And you knew that the only way you can get the Judge

8 to say that and to get anything less than two to four

9 years is to cooperate and get that 5K1 letter, right?

10 A Please repeat that again?

11 Q You know that the only way that you can possibly

12 avoid going to jail for two years --

13 A Yes.

14 Q -- Anywhere from two to four years, is to get the 5K1

15 letter?

16 A That's correct.

17 Q You know that you have to please the government.

18 They have to be satisfied with your testimony so that

19 they'll write that letter; isn't that so?

20 A I --

21 Q Well, let me ask you. I f they are not happy with

22 what you say, do you think you'll get that letter?

23 A It has nothing to do with them being happy or not.
24 I'm here to tell the truth.
25 Q Well, it's the truth as they determine the truth to

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6041
Saffer-cross/Schoer


1 be; isn't that so?

2 A Yes.

3 Q And if they determine after you sit there that you

4 have not told the truth because they don't agree with what

5 you're saying, then you're not going to get that 5K1

6 letter, right?

7 A That's correct.

8 Q And then you'll go to jail, straight to jail, right?

9 A That's correct.

10 Q And you don't want that to happen, right?

11 A That's correct. I don't want it to happen.

12 Q All right.

13 So you will say what they think the truth is,

14 right?

15 A No.

16 Q You said that you came to work at Who's Who Worldwide

17 in July of 1990; is that correct?

18 A That's correct.

19 Q And at that time the offices were at Port Washington?

20 A Yes.

21 Q At that time was Tara working there when you first

22 started there?

23 A When I first started working there, Tara Green had
24 not been there.
25 Q Had the pitch already been prepared?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6042
Saffer-cross/Schoer


1 A Yes, it had.

2 Q Would you say over the five years, while you've seen

3 a lot of pitches, that over the five years substantially

4 the pitch remained the same?

5 A Basically it did remain the same.

6 Q So is it fair to say that the pitch that you used

7 when you first started working was basically the same as

8 the pitch the day that the government came in and raided

9 Who's Who Worldwide ?

10 A Basically the same contents.

11 Q And that pitch was prepared and written before Tara

12 Garboski even worked at Who's Who Worldwide, right?

13 A That's correct.

14 Q And as far as you know, that pitch was written by

15 Mr. Gordon, right?

16 A That's correct.

17 Q And in fact, he says that. Did you ever hear him say

18 "every one of those lines is my baby," or words to that

19 effect?

20 A Yes.

21 Q You've heard him say that, right?

22 A Yes.

23 Q So you know that Mr. Gordon is the one that wrote
24 every one of those lines that is in that document?
25 A That's correct.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6043
Saffer-cross/Schoer


1 Q And Mr. Gordon was a pretty tough boss, wouldn't you

2 say?

3 A Yeah, I would say.

4 Q There were times when he yelled at people, right?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And in front of other people, right?

7 A Yes.

8 Q There were times when he fired people in front of

9 other people, right?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And there were times when he -- well, withdrawn.

12 Would you also say that Mr. Gordon is a very

13 hands-on manager?

14 A Yes.

15 Q He made decisions about the minutest things that went

16 on at Who's Who?

17 A That's correct.

18 Q In fact, he made all the decisions at Who's Who

19 Worldwide?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And is it fair to say that at times you heard him say

22 "this is my business and I'll run it the way I want to

23 run it"?
24 A Yes.
25 Q No matter who suggested something or said, you know,

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6044
Saffer-cross/Schoer


1 I'm not really happy doing something this way,

2 Mr. Gordon's ans wer was "this is my business and I'll do

3 it the way I'll do it and you'll do it the way I want to

4 do it," right?

5 A That's correct.

6 Q And Mr. Gordon is the one that formulated all the

7 policies for Who's Who Worldwide, isn't that fair to say?

8 A That's fair to say.

9 Q And one of those policies that Mr. Gordon had was to

10 keep the sales branch of Who's Who Worldwide separate from

11 the other branches of Who's Who Worldwide; isn't that

12 correct?

13 A That I don't follow. The sales branch?

14 Q Well, there was a sales department, right?

15 A Yes.

16 Q You were in the sales department, right?

17 A That's correct.

18 Q There was an office of public affairs, right?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Debra Benjamin, right?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Susan Konopka, right?

23 A Yes.
24 Q Maggie Swendseid, right?
25 A Maggie --



OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6045
Saffer-cross/Schoer


1 Q Maggie Swendseid?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Maybe somebody else. Tracey Colletti, right?

4 A Umm-hmm.

5 Q And you said that you didn't even know what those

6 people did, right?

7 A That's correct.

8 Q And that was what Mr. Gordon told you when you wanted

9 to know what they did. That was his policy?

10 A Not to go into those offices, the back office.

11 Q And in addition to the public affairs, there was this

12 administration office, right?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And not only weren't you allowed to go into the

15 administration office, you were threatened you could be

16 fired if you went into that administration office; isn't

17 that correct?

18 A That's correct.

19 Q And this administration office had a double door, a

20 dutch door?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And it was black, right?

23 A I don't remember the color.
24 Q And it was called the black door. You can't cross
25 the black door?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6046
Saffer-cross/Schoer


1 A That I don't recall.

2 Q Okay.

3 But in any event, they had this dutch door?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And they closed it and they locked it, right?

6 A Closed it and locked it?

7 Q Locked the bottom of the door so no one could come

8 in?

9 A I don't remember if it was locked. It was closed. I

10 don't know if it was locked.

11 Q Liz Sautter was in charge of the administration,

12 right?

13 A Yes.

14 Q She was Bruce's right-hand man, right-hand lady,

15 right?

16 A That I wouldn't know.

17 Q Do you know whether Liz Sautter was arrested or March

18 30th, the day you were arrest ed?

19 A I don't think she was.

20 Q How about Debra Benjamin, was she arrested the day

21 you were arrested?

22 A No.

23 Q Liz Sautter had a lot more to do with the mailings
24 than you did, did she, as far as you know?
25 A I assume, yes.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6047
Saffer-cross/Schoer


1 Q Debra Benjamin had a lot more to do with the mailings

2 than you did, didn't she?

3 A Yes.

4 Q But those people weren't arrested, right?

5 A To the best of my knowledge, no, they weren't.

6 Q And Ms. Sautter had a company car, right?

7 A She had a car. I have no idea if it was a company

8 car.

9 Q How about Debra Benjamin, the lady you introduced to

10 Mr. Gordon. Do you know if she had a company car?

11 A I believe she had a company car, yes.

12 Q These were high level management people, right? Liz

13 Sautter and Debra Benjamin?

14 A That's correct.

15 Q And they weren't arrested, right?

16 A That's correct.

17 Q In fact, Liz Sautter, other than Mr. Gordon, Liz

18 Sautter was the only person who had keys to the office,

19 isn't that fair to say?

20 A I don't have any knowledge there.

21 Q You don't know that.

22 For five years you worked there, right?

23 A Yeah.
24 Q And that administration office, you weren't aware of
25 what they did in that administration office, were you?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6048
Saffer-cross/Schoer


1 A No, I wasn't aware what they did.

2 THE COURT: Well, go ahead and finish your

3 question.

4 You finish your thought.

5 MR. SCHOER: I will, Judge.

6 BY MR. SCHOER:

7 Q Did you know whether or not there were people in the

8 administr ation office that were doing data entry with

9 respect to the orders that you were writing?

10 A I assume they were.

11 Q Do you know whether or not there were people in the

12 administration office that were reviewing the orders that

13 you wrote?

14 A No, I didn't know what was going on there.

15 Q Well, were you told by anyone that Wendi Springer's

16 job was to review the orders to make sure that people

17 qualified?

18 A That I remember.

19 Q That you remember, right?

20 Wendi Springer had a specific job that after you

21 wrote an order it was her job to make sure that people,

22 that you wrote an order for, meaning you, all the

23 salespeople, were qualified, right? That was her job?
24 A I had heard mention of that, yes.
25 Q So when you wrote an order you knew there was another

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6049
Saffer-cross/Schoer


1 level of selection. There was another level of review

2 after you wrote an order. Wendi Springer was going to

3 make sure that those people were qualified; isn't that

4 right?

5 A That's correct.

6 Q And you got back at some point on a weekly basis, a

7 list of the commissions that you had earned, right?

8 A That's correct.

9 THE COURT: Are you getting into something else?

10 MR. SCHOER: No, Judge, one more question.

11 THE COURT: Go ahead.

12 BY MR. SCHOER:

13 Q And sometimes the names that -- sometimes some of the

14 orders that you wrote weren't on the list of commissions;

15 isn't that correct?

16 A That's correct.

17 Q And that was because either those people cancelled,

18 right --

19 A That's correct.

20 Q -- Or someone determined that what you wrote up, the

21 person you wrote up, wasn't qualified, right?

22 A If that was -- if that was the case we would have

23 gotten the order back.
24 Q Why, to call the person again to ask him whether he
25 was qualified?

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6050
Saffer-cross/Schoer


1 A To ask him maybe the credit card was wrong.

2 Q No, no. I'm asking you they weren't qualified for

3 submission into the registry, right?

4 Wendi Springer's job, some people that you

5 qualified, she said these people are not qualified, do not

6 get their commission, right?

7 A That was her job to review it. Yes, I would say

8 that.

9 MR. SCHOER: I guess we'll continue on Monday.

10 Thank you, Judge.

11 THE COURT: We'll recess, members of the jury,

12 Monday, and believe it or not Monday is the month of

13 March. Time is passing quickly. Maybe not so quickly,

14 b ut I hope it's quickly.

15 So we'll recess until Monday at 9:30. We'll get

16 you in on time, I hope on Monday.

17 I want to explain that we have a number of

18 defendants in this case, each one is represented by a

19 lawyer. Each lawyer has a right and an obligation to

20 thoroughly represent, properly represent his client in

21 this case and to cross-examine. And of necessity, some of

22 these questions overlap, you heard that and you heard

23 that, and that is proper, even though it is repetitious,
24 each lawyer has to approach it in his own manner and lead
25 into the situation. So there will be a certain amount of

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6051

1 repetition. That is proper and cannot be helped.

2 Everybody is trying to move this case along as

3 quickly as possible and the lawyers are doing all they can

4 conscient iously and properly and competently to do that,

5 but it's a case that has a lot of records, a lot of

6 documents, a lot of exhibits, a lot of defendants and a

7 lot of witnesses. And it just can't be helped. But

8 everybody is going to try to expedite it as much as

9 possible. Always consistent with the full, fair

10 opportunity to be heard. That is very important.

11 So we'll recess until Monday, March 2nd at 9:30.

12 In the meantime, please, do not discuss this case

13 either among yourselves or with anyone else. Don't make

14 any telephone calls to Paducah, Kentucky to try to sign up

15 this witness for the next show on television.

16 Keep an open mind. Come to no conclusions.

17 We'll see you at 9:30 on Monday.

18 Have a very nice three-day -- and work tomorrow.

19 I forgot have a nice three-day weekend.

20 (Jury exits.)

21 (Out of the presence of the ju ry.)

22 THE COURT: You are signaling, Mr. White?

23 MR. WHITE: Yes. I just want to update the Court
24 on two things.
25 THE COURT: All right. Now you can step outside,

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6052

1 Mr. Saffer. You will have to be back before 9:30 on

2 Monday. Do you understand that?

3 THE WITNESS: I will, Your Honor.

4 THE COURT: You will, right?

5 THE WITNESS: I will.

6 THE COURT: Just wait outside.

7 (Witness excused.)

8 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I just want to take two

9 things up. First of all, the documents that Mr. Schoer

10 asked for last night about the pedigree sheet for some of

11 these witnesses, I gave to the defendants this morning. I

12 just didn't put that on the record previously.

13 THE COURT: I'm reassured, Mr. White.

14 MR. WHITE: The other thing, I had been given the

15 task of reviewing the Oxford Who's Who file that we had

16 gotten from closed files which I did today. I reviewed

17 it. As I understood what I was supposed to do for, A,

18 whether there was materials received from the Who's Who

19 Worldwide employees who had -- that Mr. West had spoken to

20 or information that identified them, and, B, whether there

21 was any material that could potentially be 3500 material

22 with respect to Mr. West.

23 With respect to the second category first, there
24 is -- the only thing in that file that could only even be
25 considered 3500 material for Mr. West is a three-page

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6053

1 handwritten summary he made of a call with an Oxford

2 employee. I don't really think it's 3500 but I made

3 copies and I'd be happy to give it to the defense

4 attorney. It has nothing t o do with any Who's Who

5 employee, from what I can tell.

6 With respect to the first category, there's no

7 documents in the file related to say resume's or whatever

8 that identifies the Who's Who employees that they spoke

9 to. I do have three of the names. I think all three are

10 audible on the tapes anyway, but one is Don Friedman.

11 THE COURT: F-R-I-E-D-M-A-N?

12 MR. WHITE: Yes, and -- or Don Harris, or I think

13 he used that name on the tape.

14 The second one is Larry S-C-E-N-S-C-N-E-Y, and

15 the last one is Gary Jones.

16 THE COURT: Who are they, employees of Oxford?

17 MR. WHITE: No, three Worldwide employees who are

18 on those tapes that I turned over, some of which they

19 played for Mr. West.

20 The other people, the other Who's Who employees

21 that are on those tapes are not identified in the file

22 that I reviewed which I unders tand is the whole file.

23 THE COURT: All right. And what witnesses are
24 you going to have on Monday?
25 MS. SCOTT: We'll have Thomas Schaeffer, Linwood

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6054

1 Schultz, David Ray, R-A-Y.

2 MR. WHITE: And obviously the continuation of

3 Mr. Saffer.

4 THE COURT: How much longer will we have?

5 Who else will cross-examine?

6 How long will you take, Mr. Schoer?

7 MR. SCHOER: Maybe an hour, Judge.

8 THE COURT: An hour more?

9 MR. SCHOER: I'm not sure and I don't want to

10 tell you I'll only be ten minutes when I'm not.

11 THE COURT: Mr. Jenks.

12 MR. JENKS: Five to ten minutes, Your Honor.

13 THE COURT: Anybody else?

14 MR. GEDULDIG: Judge, I had worked out a cross

15 but much of it has already been done and it may be if

16 Mr. Schoer will be another hour, it i s possible that I

17 will not have any cross to do.

18 THE COURT: You can if you want to.

19 MR. GEDULDIG: I know, but I don't want to say

20 that I had no cross and then pop up. Much of it has been

21 done already.

22 THE COURT: Mr. Neville.

23 MR. NEVILLE: Maybe five minutes.
24 THE COURT: We'll see you at 9:30.
25 MR. WHITE: One other issue, Your Honor.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6055

1 THE COURT: Sure.

2 MR. WHITE: Mr. Trabulus mentioned the other day

3 that defendants were planning a week long defense case and

4 I know they indicated at pretrial they had a two week long

5 defense case, at least initially.

6 I would like to receive under Rule 16 any

7 documents the defendants use in their defense case. They

8 have heard seven weeks of Government's evidence that they

9 plan a week long defen se case. If there are any documents

10 that they have, that they should be provided to the

11 government.

12 MR. TRABULUS: Firstly, Your Honor, I don't know

13 if it could be a week, it could conceivably be more. I

14 have spoken to the rest of counsel.

15 THE COURT: We're not holding you to anything or

16 any defense attorney.

17 MR. TRABULUS: Speaking just for myself. I think

18 the government already has those documents in their

19 possession.

20 THE COURT: Do you want to tell them at an

21 appropriate time what documents you are talking about?

22 MR. TRABULUS: Sure.

23 THE COURT: All right.
24 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I think now is an
25 appropriate time. Pretrial is an appropriate time.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6056

1 THE COURT: He will tell you after court is over

2 and if you want to pu t it on the record in some way, we

3 will. He'll tell you.

4 MR. WHITE: Today he will tell me?

5 MR. TRABULUS: I'll say today, Your Honor. I

6 believe Mr. White has materials relating to the Reed

7 Elsevier litigation and I'll certainly make available to

8 him my set of materials. They are in a box, transcripts,

9 exhibits that were marked at the Reed Elsevier trial, some

10 of them were part of the record on appeal. He has

11 statements from witnesses, some of whom testified in the

12 grand jury who may be called. I don't think I have to

13 identify who the witnesses are but I know the set of

14 documents that pertain to my case he has.

15 There's one other document he may not have and

16 I'll make it available to him and it's what I believe to

17 be instructions for Form 433-A that were in effect back in

18 1991 and 1992 and 1993, a one-page sheet. I'll get that

19 as soon as possible.

20 MR. WHITE: I don't know if the other defense

21 counsel have documents.

22 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Judge, I intend to utilize that

23 same form and I'm in the process of having some charts
24 prepared which relate to the information adduced on the
25 government's tax case which I intend to use to clarify

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6057

1 certain testimony. As soon as the charts are in final

2 form I will provide Mr. White with a copy.

3 The other documents I intend to use are already

4 in evidence or provided to me by the government or the

5 government has seen because they were taken from

6 Mr. Reffsin.

7 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I would like to add

8 there may be some additional documents that may be

9 obtained by subpoena, but I don't have them.

10 THE COURT: All right.

11 MR. NELSON: Your Honor, I have five finalized

12 transcripts of portions of recordings that have not been

13 introduced by the government previously. I will have

14 those finalized transcripts for the government Monday and

15 I'll give it to them.

16 THE COURT: Thank you.

17 Anybody else?

18 That's it at this point, Mr. White.

19 MR. WHITE: I'm sorry?

20 THE COURT: That's it at this point.

21 MR. WHITE: Okay.

22 THE COURT: I'm sure they will let you know if

23 they intend to put any other documents in.
24 MR. WHITE: Thank you.
25 THE COURT: We'll see you on Monday at 9:30.

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6058

1 INDEX

2

3 A L A N S A F F E R............................... 5840

4 CROSS-EXAMINATION.................................... 5870

5 CROSS-EXAMINATION.................................... 5875

6

7 F R E D G. S I M M E N.......................... 5915

8 DIRECT EXAMINATION................................... 5915

9 CROSS-EXAMINATION.................................... 5928

10 CROSS-EXAMINATION.................................... 5935

11 CROSS-EXAMINATION.................................... 5938

12 CROSS-EXAMINATION.................................... 5951

13 REDIRECT EXAMINATION................................. 5954

14

15 A L A N S A F F E R................................ 5960

16 CROSS-EXAMINATION.................................... 5960

17 CROSS-EXAMINATION.................................... 5986

18 CROSS-EXAMINATION.................................... 6002

19 CROSS-EXAMINATION.................................... 6025

20

21

22 EXHIBITS

23
24 Government's Exhibit 43-D received in evidence....... 5919
25 Government's Exhibit 43-B received in evidence....... 5924

OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER






Special thanks to Frank Martin, a true rara avis, which means one VERY nice, decent, wonderful sonuvabitch


Built by Text2Html